Agent: Waterboarding didn't yield info

Posted: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:09 PM by Mark Murray
Filed Under: Congress, Security, Pete Williams

From NBC's Pete Williams

A former FBI undercover agent who questioned al Qaeda figure Abu Zubaydah told a Senate Judiciary subcommittee today that the most valuable information gained from interrogating him was not produced by using waterboarding or other harsh methods.

Ali Soufan, testifying behind a screen to conceal his identity, said it was his questioning that yielded a breakthrough bit of intelligence -- that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was the 9/11 attack mastermind. By contrast, he said, when the CIA's contractors used their harsh methods, including waterboarding, they got nothing because Zubaydah shut down. Soufan said the Justice Department memos incorrectly said that the harsh methods produced that intelligence nugget.

Soufan also said it was his questioning, not the CIA's, that produced information about Jose Padilla. Soufan was ultimately ordered by FBI Director Robert Mueller to take no further part in the interrogation, out of the FBI's concern that the CIA's methods were over the line.

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Comments

Nashville Fan, have you appreciated the fact that this country has been safe from attack since 9/11?
George Costanza (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 10:22 AM)
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Ummm... Same song different station... Under just WHOSE watch were we ATTACKED in the FIRST place? Yeah Dickless kept us real safe now didn't he? Get your head out of your a@@ there George!

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:13 PM)

Mark, now that's an inflamatory thread headline. You should know better.

Waterboarding Committee (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:15 PM)

Right Wing Whack Jobs start with your pathetic lame excuses in 3...2...1...

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:15 PM)

What did you expect from Soufan? This man is still working and has to work with this administration. Soon he will write a book as usual. Controversary sells......

IntheMiddle, TX (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:16 PM)

"By contrast, he said, when the CIA's contractors used their harsh methods, including waterboarding, they got nothing because Zubaydah shut down."

======================================

Why is the U.S. Government contracting out interrogation?

Why can't they do it themselves?

This is just ridiculous.

Dick Cheney is going to prison . . . and I wouldn't be surprised if the star witness against him will be George W. Bush.

Nashville_fan (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:19 PM)

Wingnut spinning should be interesting in light of this. Take your dramamine everyone!

wanda, marianna florida (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:21 PM)

All this talk about keeping us safe...is hooey. The bush admin failed when it mattered most - 1/20/2000 to 9/11/2001 - they did not keep us safe, they failed.

More Americans were killed on US soil under the bush admin, and it was their responsibility to keep us safe from that type of incident happening. Again, they failed. All the keep us safe talk is nothing but blather for the brain dead and cya for the bush admin.

Jilli, Houston, TX (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:23 PM)

And why is it that the "harsh interrogation techniques" were administered by contractors?

Let's go after those contractors for breaking the law!

Government is bad and we shouldn't be taxed. But it is okay to turn over illegal interrogation activity that is vital to the safety of this country to an outside contractor? I presume our tax payer dollars (you know, the ones the right is always whining about) were used to pay these contractors to break the law? Or did they do it for free just because they like to torture people?

Chris - IL (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:24 PM)

What kind of school does a law professor teach at that thinks water boarding is not torture.I'm guessing they are supported heavy by Neo-con rightwing chickenhawks.Cheney are you out spreading your moo droppings today,while the truth is being told by former staffers.You keep trying,the free basers are behind you,all 276 of them,whats next,are you going to blame others,like you did to Little GW.I for one don;t think Bush was in on much of the back door meetings Dickie was having.He the man of few words kept GW out of the loop until Deadeye was ready to tell Little.And I'm sure Deadeye used all kinds of scary words to convince Little to play along.Like the sales job Deadeye did on the War.Cheney wants to change history,he has a chance,come clean on what you did,admit you where wrong,and go away and play cowboy in Wyoming.Fat chance of that happening,Republicans have a huge problem with things like the truth.

jesse St.Paul Minnesota (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:25 PM)

Fiesty Redhead-under whom were we attacked in the first place?

Bill Clinton, 1993, world Trade Center. Then came our embassies in Africa, and the USS Cole.

You were sayng?

no joe, no bo, nj (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:26 PM)

His questions were effective after the waterboarding.

Richard, Washington State (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:29 PM)

Law professors testifying at the hearing disagreed about whether the harsh methods amounted to illegal torture. Some cited opinions from international courts holding that while methods similar to the CIA's were inhumane, they did not amount to illegal torture.

Let's look at these words for a minute. "Harsh methods" include sleep deprivation, loud music, hypothermia. BUT WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE. There is legal precedent here. Violators have been punished as war criminals.

Ron Indiana (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:32 PM)

Be interesting to see what Cheney's next "fabrication" is to validate his career..that Waterboarding will save us from another terrorist attack?.....still without question the single most telling tale that Iraq was a Cheney fabrication was the outing of Valerie Plame for blowing the whistle on Cheney's brilliant(?) fairy tale that Iraq was buying Uranium from Africa. Maybe he needs to write a book on "fairy tales"...possibly an area of expertise, and his audience would not be able to see through his lies as easily as his current critics.

John, Sacramento (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:32 PM)

What did you expect from Soufan? This man is still working and has to work with this administration. Soon he will write a book as usual. Controversary sells......
IntheMiddle, TX (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:16 PM)

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Uh...what's "Controversary"?

Pete - Albany, NY (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:33 PM)

Law professors testifying at the hearing disagreed about whether the harsh methods amounted to illegal torture. Some cited opinions from international courts holding that while methods similar to the CIA's were inhumane, they did not amount to illegal torture.

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So now we get to differentiate between "legal torture" and "illegal torture"?

Well, this should be fun.

Pete - Albany, NY (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:34 PM)

Feisty Redhead says:

"Right Wing Whack Jobs start with your pathetic lame excuses in 3...2...1..."

Feisty Redhead also says:

"Ummm... Same song different station"

There is a pattern here somewhere.

On another note, I wish Dick Cheney was my next door neighbor and I could invite him and Lynne over for dinner every week.

Richard, Washington State (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:35 PM)

[Ali Soufan, testifying behind a screen to conceal his identity ...]
--Really? That worked, great job, really.

Maybe he should think about posting on a blog, then he could be anonymous.

Nicholas: Minnesota (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:38 PM)

So much for the talking point: torture works!

On Pelosi, if it's true that one of her aides (not her directly) was told in 2003 that a suspect was being waterboarded, does that not seem unlawful since her committee was required to be briefed BEFORE such action was taken, not after the fact? Why is the MSM ignoring that and instead giving into to the GOP Pelosi distraction? I assume all of these Republicans salivating at Pelosi knowing about torture are very much against torture and want Bush officials prosecuted,too, right? Sadly, wrong. They just want Pelosi-or any Dem- to take the fall to make a point. Although I refer to my party these days as "they" I am still a Republican (for now) and not a fan of Pelosi, but anyone can see the GOP is trying to make her the scapegoat to distract from the truth:
-The Bush Administration tortured and went against the Geneva Convention. We have evidence of conspiracy, destroying damning documents and tapes, for goodness sake. Is this what Cheney is defending? Can any American defend this, especially seeing that we are being lied to by Cheney and other RIGHT NOW about how effective torture was. WE GOT THE VITAL INFO BEFORE THE WATERBOARDING STARTED!!! End of story.

Proud Member RepublicansforObama.org

Izzy Buffalo, NY (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:45 PM)

W and dicky were asleep at the wheel on 9/11 - they ignored all the work done up to that point and stuck their head in a hole after cutting taxes and going shopping - and to those who say that we had not been attacked - well we got into 2 wars and had a nice 250,000 troops on the ground as a target rich environment to shoot at - and now 8 years later well over 4,000 troops dead, another 40,000 plus injured, and over 100,000 with PTSD and related mental issues with constant redeployments to Iraq and Afghanistan to serve W and Dicky justice to the middle east...just don't pay any attention to the fact that the people that ignored the warnings - then used fear and smear to get us into Iraq without resolving afghanistan - remember that these folks used "deferrments" to get out of Vietnam - only to send unfortunate sons to the middle east...at least "W" is keeping his mouth shut...the rest of the right wing pigs can all go to the green zone and walk around and try to blend into the local population.

SWL (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:47 PM)

Much has been made about the "torture" inflicted on some of the terrorists being held. Was it illegal or not? Who knew? Where is the passion concerning how the Taliban treats their prisoners or even Al Queda? They behead their prisoners, video tape it and submit it to Arabic TV stations so it can be played. Why are we so frustrated about how we treat prisoners and silent about how the other side does it? At least our prisoners have attorneys and can appeal to our courts. Who do the enemy prisoners get to appeal?

Were the tactics we used harsh? Some say yes and some say no. How could we have done this differently? I am not military and not an interrogator. How do you get people like these muslim extremists to open up?

People lately have been accusing Bush of not capturing Bin Laden or being asleep and allowing 9/11. What about Bill Clinton? During his watch, muslim extremists bombed the World Trade Center. Thankfully, we caught some and put them on trial. However, there was Khobar Towers, the US Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania and also the USS Cole bombing. What did Clinton do each time to try putting a stop to this? On three occassions, in 1996, 1998 and 2000, the Sudanese government offerred to arrest Bin Laden and extradite him to the United States. Each time Clinton said no. Three months after saying no the last time, the USS Cole is bombed. As a result, we have 9/11. Why no outrage at the lack of action on Clinton's part.

Just keep all of this in perspective. Bush never asked for an investigation concerning what Clinton did or did not do.

Bush did the best considering what happened. What would Al Gore have done? Who knows? What will President Obama do? I hope the President is never put in a position like that.

Richard, San Antonio, Texas (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:49 PM)

I just read about Pres Obama wanting to block the pictures of torture. I sure hope he can do this. The truth is out there, we and I mean we tortured. We are all guilty, thank you Bush and the Dick. ENOUGH!! This is why they need to be held accountable for their actions. I'm all for it. These two need to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Need to be held accountable. We have the Dick out there trying, really trying to justify torture. He's a very sick man. Make him go away please.

cindy, las vegas, nv (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:51 PM)

What did you expect from Soufan? This man is still working and has to work with this administration.
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Nice try but no quite accuarate... 'A former FBI undercover agent'

Former MEANS: previous - past - ex... So again.. how is he still working with this administration...???

Geeze... the things that make you go Hmmm??

A former FBI undercover agent

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:54 PM)

As Ronald Reagan once said, "There you go again." But this time, it's the republicans who "go again" by attacking yet another messenger, and not the message. I wonder why.

Let's put the pudding to the proof, shall we? If Muller knows about this -- one way or the other -- let him say so -- to Congress under oath. If Soufan wants to be heard, let him do the same thing. And then, when they're finished, Cheney. Sounds like an excellent entertainment line-up to me.

Anna Molly (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:01 PM)

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:02 PM)

Feisty Redhead:

I don't have any excuses. Every damn terrorist should be waterboarded and worse.

Even some Fox News people have volunteered to be waterboarded to show it's not as bad as it's cracked up to be.

Waterboarding Committee (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:02 PM)

Fiesty Redhead-under whom were we attacked in the first place?

Bill Clinton, 1993, world Trade Center. Then came our embassies in Africa, and the USS Cole.

You were sayng?
no joe, no bo, nj (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:26 PM)
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Well, with all that advance notice, why couldnt Bush and Cheney prevent 9/11 then???

Jackson, Seattle (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:03 PM)

Anna Molly - I'll bring the popcorn!!!

cindy, las vegs, nv (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:08 PM)

Anna Molly

You haven't been the same. A major disappointment.

Is it because CA and Palomino are gone?

You've gotten a little more radical when you blog ... IF you blog.

Bad Chihuahua (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:11 PM)

On another note, I wish Dick Cheney was my next door neighbor and I could invite him and Lynne over for dinner every week. Richard, Washington State
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Dude... you are in need of some serious professional help! Want to go hunting with him too??

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:12 PM)

Interesting. It corresponds to what the FBI has been saying from the beginning. Mueller refused to allow agents to participate; the FBI is the knowledgeable group to get information from suspects, the CIA and outside contractors should never have been in charge of detainees. Remember all the GOP chatter about smaller government; their idea (including Reagan) is to give the jobs to private contractors but the tax payer foots the bill. Yep, small government works well in the hands of contractors such Halliburton electrocuting our military personnel and Blackwater.

Clinton kept the US continent safe from 1993 until 2001; and yes then came embassies and the USS Cole. His administration WARNED the Bush administration that al-Qaeda was a threat and yet Cheney continues to say they knew nothing about al-Qaeda; the Bush administration had intelligence briefing warnings. I don't blame Bush/Cheney or Clinton for the attacks. Anyone who thinks that one administration or political party over another is better at keeping us safe is dreaming. Determined terrorists are evil and all that any administration can do is trust that our intelligence agencies can keep one step ahead of them. This reminds me of Nixon's supporters who kept sticking their heads in the sand rather than believe he was guilty. Thanks to Woodward and Burnstein, we learned the truth. We must learn the truth about Bush and Cheney in order to prevent a future administration from repeating this.

Jody, Iowa (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:12 PM)

Did we really think they would find an Agent that would state that waterboarding was effective? Of course not. Only those that support this case will be invited to speak.

DG, Houston, TX (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:23 PM)

Yeah real safe, How many of our Troops have died since 9/11? Many were killed just because we did torture and our "mistake" was even used as a recruiting tool! Think maan,in the long run it made us less safe. Safe huh? Tell that to all the stressed out troops out there. Don't Tread On Me.

Fyuk Yiu,Big Bad,California (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:25 PM)

Even some Fox News people have volunteered to be waterboarded to show it's not as bad as it's cracked up to be.
Waterboarding Committee (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:02 PM)

Problem with that statement---they have not followed through with their claims!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Terry, Disabled Vet, Des Moines, IA (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:27 PM)

Instead of waterboarding suspected terrorists, we should bomb 100 civilians to death. I think both Bush and Obama should stand trial for WAR CRIMES!!!!

Whats The Point (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:29 PM)

For all of you who keep saying water boarding worked. i just have one question if it worked so well were is Osama Bin laden should'nt we have captured him by now, with all the so called information got from water boarding after 8 years we still do not have him.

mary smith Charlotte NC (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:10 PM)

Even some Fox News people have volunteered to be waterboarded to show it's not as bad as it's cracked up to be. Waterboarding Committee (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 1:02 PM)
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Yeah, not the best example bub...the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Hannity has been offered $1000 to charity for every second hey lasts by Keith Obermann and has yet to respond...it's been like a month.

In fact O will double it if he admits that waterboarding is torture on air after he goes through it.

lo who who ser (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:11 PM)

The "Brainless Bush" and "Chump-Change-Cheney" Government ran their Government on fear, deception, and ultra secrecy. The Democrats were informed about nothing, and they were told very little. No way would "Darth Rove." AKA. Karl Rove. Tell the Democrats anything. The political vengence that Cheney could unleash would have been devasting. The Bush-Cheney Government was ran by Cheney like a dictatorship. No information left Cheney's office without his consent. Not in a million political years would Cheney ever keep Democratic politicians in the poltical "loop." The GOP much like the Nazi Party was run under Bush-Cheney like a police state. Wire tappings, illegal arrests, torture, and the rewriting of the law were the norm. Remember America! Hey! Hey! Ho! Ho! The party of no has got to go!

Rock,Janesville,Wisconsin (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:11 PM)

Fiesty Redhead-under whom were we attacked in the first place?

Bill Clinton, 1993, world Trade Center. Then came our embassies in Africa, and the USS Cole.

You were sayng?

no joe, no bo, nj (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 12:26 PM)
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Okay, but actually, the first attack was in 1983 at the barracks in Beirut, Lebanon. I'm trying to think who the President was back then. All I can think of is "I do not recall" . . . oh that's right, it was Reagan.

You are correct that the WTC was attacked in 1993. And Bill Clinton kept us safe until George W Bush took over in 2001 and took his eye off the ball, ignoring the threat and the signs while looking out for his corporate cronies.

Chris - IL (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:19 PM)

First, I actually support the FBI's stance on this issue, not the CIA's. But in order to be fair, let's look at the counter arguement.

The FBI have one agent saying that torture did not provide helpful information. The CIA can put forward one agent to say it did. Word vs word. The CIA could state that only after harsh treatment did the gentler method produce information--a "good cop/bad cop" effect. The arguement is not able to be proved or disproved.

About the lawyers discussing torture:
While I hold waterboarding to be torture, and that we should never have done it, the other methods might not fall into the legal label of "torture". Even with the clear (and inhumane) case of waterboarding, the question is: was it legal or illegal? The past international court cases involved soldiers torturing soldiers. The Geneva Convention appears to be silent for the case of non-uniformed combatants (like terrorists). If there is not law, there can be no crime. It's a loophole defense, but a legal system is going to have those. It does not make it right. But I could see lawyers arguing over any and all of this.

A Voice (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:36 PM)

I think that we should be able to waterboard if it saves lives like i think that it did and i dont know why the left thinks it is so bad the people we did this to send us video clips of them be-heading us soldiers!!!!!1

kade, Iowa (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:36 PM)

Crucifixion was an effective method to maintain order and fight terrorism for the Romans. Should we not change our laws and make this practice legal?

Thomas Golding (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:53 PM)

Even some Fox News people have volunteered to be waterboarded to show it's not as bad as it's cracked up to be.
Waterboarding Committee

Volunteering to be waterboarded for a short period of time does not compare to being waterboarded on a daily basis. And if waterboarding is not torture, then why don't more people request to be waterboarded.
If anyone does anything to me (physically) against my will, I consider it tantamount to torture. Do you allow people to waterboard you against your will?

Dan St. Louis, MO (Sent Wednesday, May 13, 2009 2:59 PM)

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