No single payer?
No public option?

That's not reform...and I will make sure to get to the polls to help evan bayh find his way out of office if he even entertains the notion of voting otherwise.

*******
"Liberal groups like the AFL-CIO and the SEIU are lobbying for a new stimulus. "
*******

This is premature, we haven't even gotten a good portion of the original stimulus out yet...they should chill.


*******
KDH Defense Systems, sews bulletproof vests. It had never built a sonar system and had no expertise in sonar engineering. The sonar project was to be the first product of a new 'startup' company."
*******

I don't care what party you belong to. If you misappropriate tax money...you should be run out of town.  Investigate, Prosecute, and Punish where required by law.  Change has to happen now for both parties.

The centrist threat? Sad times indeed when pragmatists looking critically at the human costs and benefits of dogmatic liberal or conservative policies are branded a threat rather than the potential salvation of government in the name of the people who must live with the consequences of brash policy. And a sad day it is when news organs like MSNBC and FOX are dueling advocates for the dogma.

Not sure many noticed, but in the obituary for Robert McNamara, one learns that he left Harvard University for Ford because his wife had been hospitalized with polio and he could not afford to pay the hospital bills on his Harvard professor's salary.....just think, had he had decent health care, what else might have changed?

Cap and Trade - 39 'aye' votes in the Senate

Healthcare - 35 'aye' votes in the Senate, tops.

America is ceter-right politically. And these Senators like their jobs, and they'll vote accordingly.

What part of 50 million uninsured, 60% bankruptcies, can't afford rising administrative costs, and deciding between food and meds do these career politicians do not get. These Democrats are spineless cowards who's meal tickets are being paid for by lobbiest and their/families hlthcare is paid for by ignorant masses who keep getting them elected. How can we compete w/ other industrialize countries that have universal hlthcare who citizens are hlthier, live longer, do not go broke and not as obese. People inform your Senators that the status quo is no longer exceptable and not be duped by them into thinking who's going to pay for it. NEWS FLASH! We as a nation we can't afford not to. How many new stories do we have to hear about people who worked/paid for insurance coverage for years and god forbid are diagnosed w/ cancer and some arrogant/greedy exceutive is deciding to deny claims because he can and these people are just names and numbers to them. So lets come up w/ some reason(S) like pre-existing because of corp., greed. How many kids die in this country because of inadequate hlthcare coverage;however; these GOP career politicans care more about free market profits and the two faced lies about santity of life. This country better wake up and start realizing what the majority of western industrized countries have figured out yrs ago that universal hlth care is not a privilge commodity for the well do but a right for everybody.    

Healthcare with a Public Option will pass, period!
The American public wants it, 72% and either the moderate Dems will sign on along with moderate Republicans or it will pass anyway.
This can be a team effort or better yet just steamroll the legislation through.
Change is definitely coming!

Centrist threat?  More like centrist firewall against the rampant takeover of American private industry.

The one thing I can say about Obama is that he cares nothing at all about polls.  He believes he is right on every issue, and pays no heed to those who disagree, no matter their arguments.

He is an idealogue, not open to ideas that lay bare the failures inherant in his philosophy.

On this board I read about his 'brilliance'; I would suggest to you that anyone who holds firmly to his or her entrenched internal thoughts, despite external proof of their fallacy, is not capable of logic.

He needs to go back to academia, which is where his talents are suitable.  In the real world, reality trumps theory.

Healthcare with a Public Option will pass, period!
The American public wants it, 72% and either the moderate Dems will sign on along with moderate Republicans or it will pass anyway.
This can be a team effort or better yet just steamroll the legislation through.
Change is definitely coming!
Drew, Cincinnati, Ohio


So who is going to pay for it? You know, as unemployment reaches 15%.

Let's clean house every election, until we finally get a Congress that understands that WE pay the bills. Out with the bums, I say!!

Once again Americans are being duped by professional politicians, the chief of which is our President.  Cap and Trade.....not a new tax?  Well if it passes I certainly think I will pay more for fuel, food, energy, taxes to my state and township, not to mention all the jobs lost due to this overbearing reprisal of Socialist behaviors.  Healthcare?  Sounds great but at what cost?  Who pays? What do we give up in the way of treatment?
In all of this the only group of individuals who are not impacted are those we elected to Congress.  They continue to spend our money and hire more people, increase the budgets, and line their own pockets.  The madness must stop.

OH this the "In order to form a more perfect Union",
the President was talking about...It's all clearer now...

I keep hearing people talk about how good universal health care is.  Why can't people see what is staring them in the face? Currently the government controls the VA Hospitals.  Go ask a Veteran how good that system is working.  I got out of the Marines in 2007 with 11 years of service to this fine nation.  Needless to say, my military medical record is full of detailed information regarding all service related injuries and ailments, yet the government run VA tells me that the 2 compressed discs in my back are NOT service related when they occurred while I was carrying gear while with the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU).  My shoulder injuries that occurred while in Iraq (for which I had two (2) reconstructive surgeries) also did not happen while in the military in accordance with the VA.  Both of these items I have mentioned above are noted in great detail in my medical records.  So while I wake up every morning in pain, the government run VA hospital says none of this occurred or is related to my military service.  Now if a relatively small government run heath care system like the VA Hospital is being run in this manner, why on Earth would anyone believe for a moment that the government would do a better job on such a grand scale that would be required to run the hospitals for an entire nation?

If you really want to bring the costs of health care down, look at the real cause.  Health care costs a lot because doctors and hospital have to pay for liability insurance.  Liability insurance costs them so much because if a patient is disgruntled in any way what so ever, they file suit in the hopes of making a buck for free.  If we are really serious about bringing health care costs down, we need to look at reforming or putting restrictions on a litigation happy nation.

Join your Local TEA party now at Meetup.com. They are Coalitions of not just Conservatives but Libertarians, Big "R" republicans, Objectivists, Austrian Economics adherents and more... I for example, am an Objectivist, and happen to be an atheist and am getting along GREAT with people I usually have tons of arguements with, and none of us leave our principles "at the door". We are making a difference. Join up, your not alone!

It's very sad when centrists are viewed as a 'threat' instead of a voice of sanity in amongst the shrill voices of extremists from both sides.

The US can't afford its current level of healthcare; it's already taking too high a percentage of our GDP and rising. We will have to start rationing healthcare and restricting people from some forms of care, just like the countries with universal healthcare do. It doesn't matter whether we have single payer or multi-payers, universal coverage or not; in any case the US better get used to waiting months to see a specialist and having some procedures not done because they 'aren't cost-effective' enough. And in the future it won't be the 'greedy insurance companies' denying you the procedure; it will be the 'huge federal medical bureaucracy' denying you the procedure. In the end it won't matter which one it is; you'll still not get that procedure you need. That’s going to be the real outcome of this battle.

I agree we need to help those who cannot help themselves, but, to take it to the point that the Government pays and runs everything is the first step to a socialist country. I am not for that!

This country was built on the belief that if you are willing to work hard and try harder than the next guy, you should be able to sow the fruits of your labor. This does not allow for the re-distribution of wealth as what is being proposed by this president.

I dont have all the answers, I know if I work hard to get ahead, I am not willing to share the spoils.

I am opposed to massive gov't taxes regardless of the cause for the reasons outlined in the last part of this story.  The goal "defend America" great goal I am on board...how does the US congress do it...give money to friends and family even though they have no idea how to build sonar!!!!  So next goal "provide healthcare for all"...great goal I am on board but we can not even begin to imagine the kind on theft that will take place.  I would not mind taxes if they were used for appropriately and provided something...but they do not and the money is stolen and wasted...so until the theft and deceit and basic corruption is brought under control we are simply wasting precious resources.  

-want to be a liberal but i live in reality

I just love hearing from all the unemployed, unemployable, and all of those who just want gov't hand-outs so they don't have to work.  Do you really think the greedy Dem's and His Highness Obama will not turn down care for the old and dying.  You guys are truly mislead, put your Brown Shirts on, join Acorn, and watch what happens.

NO MORE TAXES ---- FOR ANYONE!

OBAMA-NOMICS WILL BANKRUPT OUR NATION.

OBAMA-NOMICS SMELLS TOO MUCH LIKE FASCISM.

You would have to have the intellect of an inbred wild donkey to believe that government (any government) should have any involvement whatsoever in "public" health care.  Stimulus?  Just how bad do "you people" hate the USA?  The first Arab American President has already spent everthing that our children and grandchildren can pay for.  These centrist democrats are just trying to keep their heads on their shoulders.  When (not if - when) Barack has his was and the change that he was hoping for, WW3, starts;  we will see Barney Fox, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reed, etc.. heads on spikes.  Hope and change to what?  Be careful what you wish for.

Charles Morrison, Atlanta, GA (Sent Tuesday, July 07, 2009 10:05 AM)

Thank you for your service.  I'm sorry about your injuries.  But all your post underscores for me is that the INSURANCE companies are evil.  They are OVER CHARGING and UNDER COVERING.  AND THEN they hit the healthcare providers with insane premiums.  All of this 'risk management' is lining the coffers of industry.  We don't research cures, just 'treatments'.  Profit, Profit, Profit - Cancel High Risk, Rescision, etc.

We may need some level of tort reform; but we ABSOLUTELY need insurance reform.  Did anyone else see where Grassley couldn't even outline his own healthcare plan with the government?  And his response was that those wanting better healthcare should get a government job.  What a complete moron.  Repubs say Dems want to grow government?  Well Repubs want to hide in the skirt tails of government - once they get in - they have no intention of leaving.  I think Republican governship is like the Black Mold.  The only way to cure it is to tear the house DOWN!

Just look at all of the other industrialized nations WITH healthcare. There are many examples of nations that are doing fine with it. There are no long lines, and no rationing. Most of the American people see through the scare tactics of Limbaugh, Fox, and Glenn Beck. Others, please open your eyes, visit another country, read a book, and don't rely on anecdotal evidence coming straight from big insurance companies like AIG.

I think the comments are running to much against the rape of the American taxpayer.  Moderation is up and posts are suddenly down.

As we seen once again during this past July 4th TEA Parties that a growing number of people are getting highly fed up with more govt. reaching into our wallets.  Besides, name one democrat social program that works?
You can't.
BTW, where's the jobs Obama?

"Pay later"

I bet you were one of those idiots that supported Bush's war in Iraq. Who do you think was paying for that you moron?

At least the Health Care reform is geared to help those in the United States.

Wow. The intelligence of some people on this board surprises me. "Arab American President"? "Fascism"? I'm not even going to address the first one, and does "NO MORE TAXES --- NO MORE FASCISM" even know what fascism is? Oh right... providing health care to our citizens is fascism. How could we forget how Hitler was just trying to give health care to the Jews?

For everybody that is worried about spending and quoting "Economics 101", do you realize what governments are supposed to do in a time of recession? They are supposed to spend money! The money is supposed to be earned when the economy is doing well.

Let's try to have some empathy for the less fortunate and stop attacking our President's policies out of ignorance.

congress should stay away from Washington for longer periods of time. Were better off.....Senate also there all long time politicians who are taking care of themselves...We still have some under question but they just keep ingnoring it hopeing it will go away....Right..... Mr Rengel    pelosi must still be on her Europe trip......

Liberal groups like the AFL-CIO and the SEIU are lobbying for a new stimulus.

So sorry parasites, but we don't want every state to be like California and New York.

Once again some Americans think that health care is a right, I have never seen that in any form of the constitution. You have a right to work hard and try and get ahead. If we as a nation think we are owed anything from our goverment other than the right to pursue our happiness, we are all doomed. When the peolpe of a nation think becuase they pay taxes they should have health care, lets be taken care of by big brother  . I have worked two jobs too pay for heathcare my family has made sacrifices to have health care instead of buying a new car or a new team jersey or any other thing that is not a nessasity, we all make sacrifices some make the right choices to better them selfes and others choose to make mistakes about thier personal well being and then think they are owed . Change may come but you may not like what you get.

Ah bummer. Guess the unions should have been backing more honest people all these years instead of the doublespeak lying lawyer trash they always side with.

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1185-Government-Fraud-Pensions.html

Wow.  A tacit admission that the leadeship in Congress and the President are leftist. ( if the "Threat" is from Centrist, the leadership and President have to be to the left) Next thing you know, the Main Stream Media will make the same admission and they will just become the Department of Presidential Adoration under the new Propaganda Czar.

Health care not a right? When did we de-evolve to spineless, selfish cretins who would rather see a child die of pneumonia than foot the bill for the doctor's visit and meds to help that child? How many people go untreated because they can't afford the doctor bills or health insurance premiums no matter how many jobs they work? Why should we work day  in and day out to have access to something that people in every other industrialized and civilized country take for granted? Answer these questions for me and then tell me health care isn't a right.

Secondly, I hear complaints that socialized medicine leads to inefficiency and unnecessary deaths. So how is that different from now in our system? How many stories do we hear about people not getting help because they can't afford it? Or malpractice/misdiagnosis? Or people without means being passed over? Or people who end up with the wrong insurance or HMO not getting help because this isn't covered or because that isn't covered? Does it matter who is dying needlessly? That anyone is dying needlessly is criminal with as much money as is being wasted everywhere in this nation.

Do I think that universal health insurance is the answer? No. That will simply lead to more abuse. I do think that someone needs to get a handle on health care, however, and attack it from all angles. We need to get litigation out of it, make doctors and nurses and hospitals directly responsible for incompetence and inattention, drive toward more personal responsibility for preventative medicine (with carrots and sticks if necessary), and get a grip on the waste in the medical community itself in administrative costs. But yes, we do need an overhaul and yes, affordable health care is a right. Otherwise, what kind of people are we?

Jerry, and others: You have worked two jobs for healthcare and made sacrifices.  That's commendable -- but what if you get sick or hurt and can no longer work or need time off? How do you pay for the premiums then?  Especially if the company tells you that your premiums will go up because of the new "condition."  All people are asking is that everyone have the right to be insured -- not for free, but for a reasonable amount. If everyone is insured, and if companies can't cherry pick the healthiest clients so that their profit margins are maximized, health care would be more affordable for everyone.  If health care is not a right, are you suggesting that it is a privilege? And that once people are ill or injured they lose that privilege?

Topgun -

No, other countries with universal healthcare have serious problems, and it's not just propaganda from the insurance companies. Try doing a little bit of research on your won.

As anecdotal evidence, I travel internationally a lot and have friends in both Canada and Europe, and they aren't happy. That's why I know there are problems. But instead of relying on anecdotal evidence, I prefer hard evidence from the countries themselves.

Try reading newspaper articles from those countries themselves; see, for example, http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#britain (for Britian) and http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#canada (for Canada).

I've provided evidence (based on a cursory Google search) from newspapers in these countries that their 'universal healthcare' isn't as good as you (and the 'universal government-run healthcare is good' crowd) believe it is. Can you provide real evidence to back up your belief?

Healthcare is now controlled by the insurance industry, ask your doctor who tells them what to do.
5% of doctors cause 50% of all malpractice claims and the insurance companies want them to continue practicing so they can keep rates high.
As for malpractice lawsuits, it cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to sue a doctor or hospital.  Hospitals charge a minimum of $1 per page for reams of the necessary documents and expert witnesses charge enormous fees to testify. The bottom line is malpractice caps and bad doctors result in high profits for insurers.

"As we seen once again during this past July 4th TEA Parties that a growing number of people are getting highly fed up with more govt. reaching into our wallets."

Truth Be Told

Yo, Truth!  You got a whole 1,000 people for your event in Pittsburgh!  You can get more people than that to go to Mellon Arena to watch Penguin road games!

Republicans are stuck on stupid as evidenced by comments from above.  Most of the comments today are from republicans being the party of no, and negative.  Makes me sick to hear them open their mouths, or write their idiotic statements.  Too bad they are stuck in the 19th Century.  

Steven P, try looking up the World Health Organization.  We need to model any changes off of western Europe and Japan, not Canada and the U.K.

I'm getting so frustrated with the way politics works.  You can't completely overhaul an entire segment of the economy in a month or two.  This should be a step by step process.

My suggestions:
Step 1: reduce healthcare costs.  Figure out WHY healthcare costs are rising.  I'll give you a hint: start with lifestyle changes.  Smoking and obesity.  That's roughly 20% of our national healthcare costs right there and they're entirely preventable.  Don't smoke, eat right, exercise frequently.  (Ref. http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Diet/Story?id=3683683&page=1 -- an Oct. 2007 article)
Step 2: reduce health insurance costs.  Increased competition is a great place to start.  Get rid of state boundaries for insurance companies.  Establish a set of federal regulations for insurance plans to take the place of the state requirements.
Step 3: expand coverage.  Impose regulations on health insurance companies.  The healthcare field is already heavily regulated as it is, while the insurance companies are the only ones making ends meet, let alone profiting.  Universal coverage, while a great end-goal, may not be a realistic immediate goal.  Work towards it, but don't force it too soon.

It's important to realise that trying to implement all the changes that the healthcare industry needs at once can only meet failure.  Changing too many variables results in a scenario that no one can predict, much less plan for.

Nicely done Steve. You have stumbled across the truth that is NO SYSTEM IS PERFECT. These examples are clearly some of things that have gone awry in the Canadian/British systems. I'm sure if you wanted to look, you could also find numerous examples about the US system where people where left out and denied adequate care as well. In fact, if the system was so great in the US you wouldn't have this huge groundswell for changing it would you?

So, I'll go back to the premise of this whole debate: What should the US do to mitigate costs and increase coverage? What I'll tell you is there's no "easy answer" or the politicians would already have solved this issue.

Not unlike many issues in the US, the people seem to want the best of things but aren't willing to pay for them. Life doesn't work that way and you're starting to find this out the hard way now with your crumbling infrastructure, budget deficits and mounting debt.

You cannot keep cutting taxes and increasing spending on healthcare plans or military budgets and have things "work out in the end". You cannot keep wanting to have cheap goods/services and complain about illegal immigration, jobs going overseas or the declining quality of life for average Americans. It just doesn't work that way.

The one thing I can say about Obama is that he cares nothing at all about polls.  He believes he is right on every issue, and pays no heed to those who disagree, no matter their arguments.

no joe, no bo, nj (Sent Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:48 AM)

________

One has to wonder whether you took issue with Bush when he said even if the entire country disagreed with him, he would still do what *he* thought was right.

Message (please, no HTML tags. Web addresses will be hyperlinked):