Iraq

Still Crazy After All These Years — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:26:13 GMT

"Not tho' the soldier knew Someone had blunder'd:Their's not to make reply, Their's not to reason why, Their's but to do and die:Into the valley of Death rode the six hundred"-The Charge of the Light Brigade,poem, Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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Asad — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:03:20 GMT

"Sweetie, you don't understand. If I can do this, then all those lies I told will be true. Don't you want Daddy's lies to be true?" - Homer Simpson

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Robert Catalano, Salem, OR — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:23:14 GMT

"To die so young in an unknown land; where the shame of blood is on no one's hand. But, on who's heart will the guilt be bound; the one who sent him out or the one who shot him down?" Eric Anderson in song "For What Was Gained"

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blacksheep, Pope County, Ar. — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:52:19 GMT

To continue to ignore the will of the people in this nation to pursue a lost war in Iraq is not a sign of strength on the part of the POTUS. Bring our military home now! Someone please point out for me in our constitution where it gives our government the legal authority to establish a private army that does not answer to the people of this nation?

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Steve Turner Cedar Falls Iowa — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:57:34 GMT

Dubya speaks tonight, I wonder...no real reason why, his is just to spit in our eye,...I hope not another 'Mission Accomplished' blunder...If so, it would be number six hunder. -The Charge of the Debit President,nonpoem, Darth, Lord Vader

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Lee in MV — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 14:59:33 GMT

400,000 pairs of boots and 3 years - everything else is window dressing and p*ssing in the wind. The whole country needs to be in lock down, the borders patrolled constantly with drones and backed up with rapid response teams. The forces will have to essentially man police stations. After a year or so of finding the weapons cashes that PRESIDENT Look Ma -No Hands DIDN'T secure and providing REAL security, the moderates will start turning in the radicals if the y feel safe. Then we could probably get foriegn help, once the violence has been stopped. It might require a low-level enlistment campaign of "beat walkers" in safe areas, possible comprised of athsma-ridden chicken hawks shamed into putting their money where their mouths are, and girl scouts.

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jerry/corpus christi texas — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:00:40 GMT

Harry Reid adding to global warming with all his hot air. Thamk god he is Nevada's problem

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Russell in Maryland — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:56:34 GMT

We might think of considering what the Iraqi people want. After all, we are the occupiers of their country. Polls there say they want us to leave. Some members of the Iraqi parliment recently resigned because of the Iraqi president's refusal to set a deadline for US withdrawal. They believe the bloodshed will decrease after we leave.

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Dave M., Miamisburg, OH — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 15:57:48 GMT

Asad, I love the Simpson's reference. Very appropriate to what's going on. Senator Reid couldn't be more correct. It's foolish for people to get all worked up over him stating the obvious, namely, "the war is already lost." Duh! It was lost sometime between 6 months and 18 months ago. Hard to tell for certain. But, shortly after one of those "we're turning a crucial corner" phrases was utterd, it was over. What's happening now is just a military presence for the sake of not allowing things to spin further out of control than they already are - even that is not working (things careen out of control more and more each day). Any talk of "victory" or "winning" is pure nonsense designed to appease the "hawks" back in the USA who still like to pretend that this whole mess will somehow have a fairy tale ending. The republican Senators and Congressmen who state this tripe don't even believe it. If only we would BELIEVE, if only we don't give up,........ things will get better. Yeah, sure.

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MK,MO — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:06:48 GMT

Jerry how are we supposed to win a civil war in another country, I have asked this question before but what will have to happen for our police action to be declared a victory? We accomplished what we set out to do,remove saddam and set up a goverment, I don't remember making all the religous factions kiss and make up being one of the goals, if it was it shows how stupid our leaders are, those people have always fought and allways will, let them do it without American kids in the middle.

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Susan, Nebraska — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:19:17 GMT

blacksheep, VERY WELL SAID!!! Mk, MO don't waste your breath. He will not answer a direct question especially that one, because I have asked him that too. He will just spin it and blame clinton and the libs. So good luck with that.

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Darren (asthma-ridden chicken hawk) Pope, MB, SC — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:46:30 GMT

Or we could just send you, Lee. Since you have all the answers I'll bet you could bring the situation under control within a few hours. Your name-calling a BS spuoting has become quite tiresome, and comes off as quite juvenile.

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Darren Pope, MB, SC — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:50:05 GMT

Russell, actually the latest CNN/USA Today?Gallup poll showed that the majority of Iraqis don't want us to leave immediately. 54% want us to stay. Maybe we should pay attention to what they want.

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Mel, Ill — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 16:50:41 GMT

Romans, Byzantines, Turks, Crusaders, Mongols, Ottomans, French, Germans, Italians, English...all occupied various regions in the Middle East at some point in the past. I have a friend who lives in Oman and he has talked extensively about the proud and ancient history and culture of the region. The U.S. government is viewed as an immature, self-centered juvenile with little or no understanding of other peoples. Perhaps we should have listened to 'Old Europe'. I don't expect we will be any more successful in our occupation than the aforementioned occupiers. We didn't break something in the Pottery Barn...we broke something in a shop full of priceless antiques and ticked off all the other antique dealers in the neighborhood.

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Desmond — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:34:08 GMT

Today, the Iraqis had a demonstration against the wall we are building in Bagdad. al-Maliki wants the wall building to stop. Our ambassador says we respect their wishes but that wall is going up. Maybe we should listen to the Iraqis and what they want.

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Lee in MV — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:49:40 GMT

400,000 troops and 3 years. Everything else is just BS.

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Scott in South Texas — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:53:29 GMT

bush and them don't care what the Iraqis want, it's not their country anymore. Iraq was conquered so it can be transformed into a permanent outpost in the American Empire, full of permanently stationed ground troops and fighter/bombers. Part of the neocon imperialist strategy is "force projection" and since the Saudis got sick of us being there Iraq is the chosen occupied land, perfectly located to launch further invasions and ensure imperial US hegemony. Sure there's a wall around the Green Zone, which will soon include the largest embassy anywhere in the world. The Green Zone is becoming permanent US territory. bush and them have no intention of ever withdrawing our military. This unholy reign must end before it's too late.

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jtb — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 17:55:23 GMT

Robert Catalano: thought about your response all weekend. You are right in your assessment. What makes me against joining the chorus of ending the Iraq war now, is the mistake of repeating history. The thirty year devastating effect I witnessed firsthand among the returning 'Nam vets, when our government and the American people pulled the rug out from the sacrifice they all made, and the emotional and psychological torment they endured becuase of it, both from without and within, I hoped I would never see repeated again. I was hoping I would not have to listen again, as someone else's cousin muttered: "..my fiance died for nuthin'" Since you have indicated that you had served in 'Nam, and your passionate reponses represent your convictions, I'd like to thank you for your service, and the fact that you allowed me to carry on an intelligent argument, without pulling rank and p----ng all over my opinions due to the fact that I did not serve.

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Carrie, NW Iowa — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:36:16 GMT

jtb - That was a very thoughtful response, and it does make sense. It would be horrible for all of those who have died to have done so in vain. However, wouldn't it also be horrible for another 3000+ to die in vain? I'm not intending any disrespect for your opinion, but I guess my question is...how do you know when enough is enough?

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Still Crazy After All These Years — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:40:59 GMT

"Mr Gorbachev, take down that wall"-Ronald Reagan

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rick,ky — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:55:45 GMT

The sugar must be sweeter in Mrytle beach these days. Darren I look forward to your rant's for the next 20 year's, because that's how long it's gonna be before idea's, such as You endorse so faithfully, will probably ever be tested upon The American Public again.Enjoy the Ride!!!!!!!!!! LOL

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Susan, Nebraska — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:11:33 GMT

Desmond, he not only said he wanted it to stop going up, from what I heard he wants it to come down. Why would we expect anything less from this administrations cronies than to ignore the wishes of who it effects directly to continue to fulfill our own agenda. Seems to be the Bush mantra. Talk all you want but Im gonna do it my way. There is a song for you Dorthy and still crazy. ***P.S. MK,Mo I told you jerry wouldn't reply to a direct question.

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jtb — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:13:09 GMT

Carrie, that's a damn GOOD question, one that I don't have an answer for.

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Dorothy — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:14:09 GMT

"All in all you're just an...other brick in the wall...."--Pink Floyd

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Robert Catalano, Salem, OR — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:23:04 GMT

jtb, thanks. Sometimes, there are things in life we have no control over. Having been a counselor in the mental health field, we have a saying, "You can't control everything that happens to you but you can control how you react to it." History has proven that when wars are fought and soldiers die for a "grand strategy" rather than a "just cause", they have essentially died 'for nothin' as you've heard before. There is no way we can completely stop things like 911 and the recent killings at VTU from happening. However, how we react to them we can control. When we went to Afghanistan, threw over the Taliban because they were sheltering those who attacked us, it was a "just cause". Attacking Iraq as part of a "grand strategy" was a mistake. Instead of preventing al-Quaida from rising out of the ashes (as we prevented the Nazis from doing after WWII), we quit fighting the "just cause" and now al-Quaida is not only still fighting us there, they are fighting us in Iraq. As a result of our switch in focus, we have actually increased the chances of massive sectarian bloodshed in the Middle East. In response to what happened to we vets who returned from Vietnam, the situation was different. The one thing the American public did learn from Vietnam is the soldiers did not lose the war; American foreign policy, before and during the war, set the stage where victory became impossible. Although different mistakes have been made, the scenario is similar in Iraq. If bloodshed on the scale many believe will happen does happen in Iraq, we are partly responsible for it. As far as people thinking their relatives died for nothing...well, that is nothing new. Remember, WWI was the war to end all wars and it didn't. As long as there are leaders who are willing to kill other people for one reason or another, they will always find ways to justify their actions, come up with cathchy sayings ("we are fighting them over there so we won't have to fight them over here"), and send young men to die. We may have little control over the eventuality of war but we sure can do a better job of picking leaders who will send our men to die only when it is necessary.

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Desmond — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:40:27 GMT

When all is said and done, we will have 7 permanent military bases in Iraq. We will also have the largest embassy in the world in Iraq. Anyone think we are leaving anytime soon? Anyone not know these facts?

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blacksheep, Pope County, Ar. — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:07:42 GMT

jtb said >>What makes me against joining the chorus of ending the Iraq war now, is the mistake of repeating history. The thirty year devastating effect I witnessed firsthand among the returning 'Nam vets, when our government and the American people pulled the rug out from the sacrifice they all made, and the emotional and psychological torment they endured becuase of it, both from without and within, I hoped I would never see repeated again. I was hoping I would not have to listen again, as someone else's cousin muttered: "..my fiance died for nuthin'" Since you have indicated that you had served in 'Nam, and your passionate reponses represent your convictions, I'd like to thank you for your service, and the fact that you allowed me to carry on an intelligent argument, without pulling rank and p----ng all over my opinions due to the fact that I did not serve.<< Well, I must admit that I am shocked, a response that was thought out and objective from you!! However, as one that was on the receiving end of the fallout from that political war, I will say most of our mental anguish that you speak of was not from the war being ended at that time, it was because we knew it was lost long before our leaders accepted that it was. This caused many more losses in life than should have been if the government had listened to the people! It is easy to write about the causes and the nobility of war in a historical sense if one has not been subjected to the horror of said war. There is more to sacrificing for our nation to stay in this war than paying a little more for gas and groceries! End this futile attempt at refereeing a civil war now!!!

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Darren , MB, SC — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:19:12 GMT

rick, to which "rant" are you referring? It would seem you are drinking something more than kool-ade, my friend. In response to your post I can only say this. Thankfully the majority doesn't always rule in the USA. Simply because most people have bought into the Democrats latest vote grab, doesn't mean everyone will. The dems don't care one way or another about whether or not the war in Iraq is right or wrong. They are just trying to get on the side that will get them the most votes. I have questioned my own support of the war lately, but I'm not ready to jump on the bandwagon because I want to be another sheep in the herd. If we leave Iraq now, what then? Will we run every time the going gets tough? Should we show Al-Qaeda and every other terror group that they are exactly right in their assesment of us? If we leave will they end their quest to bring "Death to America"? Harry Reid has shown once again today that he has no idea what he's talking about. By saying "we need a surge in diplomacy" it is evident he doesn't have a clue about who our enemy is. There is no room for negotiation or diplomacy with them. It is either submit to their perverted view of Islam or die. I do not have the answers, but it surely isn't what Reid suggests, and it isn't running away and hoping for the best.

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Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:35:29 GMT

jtb--I want to understand. Your belief is that the lesson of Vietnam is that if one or a hundred or a thousand soldiers are killed then THAT and THAT alone is the justification for continuing a war that may have been a mistake? Does your belief allow for the fact that our leaders can, have and will make costly mistakes in judgement? I would also like to ask you respectfully what you would consider a victory in Iraq? I can only see continued slow bleeding. I believe that we could stay there for 50 years at the current rate of casualties and when we finally left it would revert to what it was in a matter of days. I think that the lesson of Vietnam is that you cannot deliver democracy at the end of a bayonet to people in a country that you have invaded. I think that you also may be missing the fact that the people that oppose this war have learned from Vietnam that you don't blame your soldiers, you don't spit on them, you support them by insuring that the policy is right. If it is wrong and the nations leaders are making mistakes then we must support the troops by holding the LEADERS accountable. The President and his administration took us into this war...the military continues to obey, without question the directives of the civilian authority. That is their honorable Duty. Dieing in execution of that duty is ALWAYS honorable and never a waste. But that makes it our solemn duty as citizens to insure that the cause is just and gains worth the price. We has citizens must have their backs for they cannot and should not disobey orders. We should not throw good lives after good lives when it is obvious that the policy is flawed and the results are poor. In 1968 when BOTH parties ran on ending our involvement in Vietnam their were roughly 20,000 casualties. By the time it was done another 30,000 had died. That is monstrous. That is the mistake of Vietnam that we must not repeat.

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Darren, MB, SC — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:15:49 GMT

Seven permanent bases? Haven't heard that "fact". Inside information? Or mere speculation? Show me. Even if true it really has little to do with whether or not we should or should not be there.

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Jane, Southern Mississippi — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:20:28 GMT

Most of America wants to know what would constitute a "win" in Iraq. We want to know, but all we hear is we will win when we win. I guess it's like some other things, that you don't know what it is, but you know it when you see it.

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Desmond — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:32:57 GMT

Darren, guess you are out of the loop. Its been reported in the news and confirmed. Maybe you were sleeping.

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Darren, MB, SC — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:33:37 GMT

Many would say that the war in Vietnam was lost BECAUSE our leaders payed too much attention to public sentiment. Instead of fighting the war the way it should have been, political consideration became the first concern. This tied the hands of the military and the rest is history. If the government had listened to the people during our own civil war, Lincoln would have capitulated and allowed the Confederacy to continue slavery. Many Americans believed then that too many people were dying, civilian and soldier alike, and stopping the war was the best course of action. Even if it meant giving into evil. Again, this goes back to the point many people have been trying to make. Just because the majority want something, it doesn't mean it's the best course of action. In any event, I still believe that dems are for the most part against the war simply because they want to be in opposition to the president. I firmly believe if GW came out tomorrow and said he would begin an immediate withdrawal the dems would at first claim victory, then as the pull-out began, they would come up with "new information" and say the president should strop the withdrawal and stop running from the terrorists.

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Desmond — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 21:48:19 GMT

And , oh yes, Darren a couple of months ago I asked what constitues a fleet. You were the first one to answer me. Knew all the facts, right down to the last boat. And if we do not have the information as a people, from our President about those 7 bases, it is because he did not tell us directly. Does not mean it is not true.

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ex-marine,viet vet — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:03:31 GMT

If you ask another human being to sacrafice their life so that the preceding death is not wasted then it never ends as another life will need to be sacraficed and another and another, it will never end. Making a reasoned decision to approach the problem from a different direction is not quiting or losing. There is a time when it is very responsible to fall back regroup and and make a different approach. Tactics need to be changed when circumstances call for it, in the end a political solution is the only thing that will end the violence. The Irish conflict with England is a good example.

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Still Crazy After All These Years — Mon, 23 Apr 2007 22:26:31 GMT

"Smoke on the water, fire in the sky"-Deep Purple

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Mark Thieme — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 00:00:41 GMT

Nine more US troops killed today in Diyala Province. God rest their souls. May perpetual light shine upon them. Pray for the ones they left behind. Fly the flags at half-mast.

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Darren, MB, SC — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 00:02:37 GMT

Oh. Well, since it was reported "in the news", that makes all the difference. It must be true then. I must've been sleeping. I have "the news" on all day almost everday. I switch between a few different cable networks. I read the local "news"paper, and check the online versions of many others almost daily. Yet, I have seen nothing about seven "permanent" bases. Now, obviously the bases we build aren't going anywhere unless someone blows them up or bulldozes them, but does that mean we're planning on staying there "permanently" as you imply? And if we are, does that proove we shouldn't have even invaded? I'm just trying to figure out exactly what you're getting at.

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Still Crazy After All These Years — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 00:08:29 GMT

"Cannon to the right of them, Cannon to the left of them, Cannon in front of them Volley'd and thunder'd Storm'd at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well, Into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of Hell Rode the six hundred."-The Charge of the Light Brigade-Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 01:32:16 GMT

Darren--A reasonable person can argue that the purpose of the Iraq war has been achieved. That would be a permanent military presence in the middle east. A reasonable person could further argue that such a goal could not have been sold to the American people without a "pretext" (nice word for lie). A reasonable person who has observed the results to date in Iraq and then weighed them against the cost in American and Iraqi lives and to American prestige and confidence could easily conclude that we should not have invaded Iraq but instead secured our gains in Afghanistan and perhaps been able to capture Bin Laden and the others that DID commit the crime of 9/11. These are not unreasonable conclusions.

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Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 01:42:50 GMT

Darren--One more point. When you speak of Vietnam you always jump to why we lost. You completely ignore the possibility that we should not have been there in the first place. You ignore the possibility we lost because of bad policy based on wrong assumptions made by flawed leaders. You ignore the possibility that the United States could be wrong.

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jtb — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:09:53 GMT

Gary Schear: thanks for the input. I can't argue with your logic and conclusions. I thought the Iraqis really desired democracy. Today: it doesn't seem to be the case.

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jtb — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:19:10 GMT

Robert Catalano: thanks again.

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Scott in South Texas — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 13:48:33 GMT

Thank you, jtb, for your thoughtful discussion and the tone of your recent posts.

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Gary Schear, bozeman Montana — Tue, 24 Apr 2007 14:59:19 GMT

jtb--I think that all the mainstream Iraqis want is the killing to stop. But the killing has a momentum of it's own. I agree with you that when we leave, there will be full out bloody civil war but it will end sooner than if we stayed for years. Yes, they will likely end up with a powerful despot to fill the vacuum. But the explosions will stop and the blood will be mopped up. With out a doubt their "new boss" will be "same as the old Boss." But it will then be their job to cut the throat of their own tyrant. If there is to be Democracy and liberty in Iraq then it will have to be forged in the fire of their own revolution. Perhaps that revolution will succeed or perhaps it will fail but it will be theirs and they will care more about it.