First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Pat, Boston, MA — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:24:40 GMT

Moments To Remember –

June 6th.

Tomorrow is one of those days to reflect on what we as a country stand for. These days only come around a few times a year when we are all one. July 4th, Thanksgiving Day, September 11th and December 7th. But tomorrow is one of those days when we remember and pay tribute not so much to our country, but instead to our own fathers, our uncles or perhaps even our grandfathers. And to pay tribute most of all those who are buried in Normandy. They were once 18, 19 years old. Yet they knew they were fighting for the future of their children. For the future of America. For the future of a more decent planet.

It’s one of those few days a year in which we come together as Americans. 65 years. Wish I had asked my father more about his experiences in WWII before he died. But as Tom Brokaw has said so eloquently so often, it wouldn’t have mattered. My father was one who didn’t feel the need to tell his war stories. That doesn’t mean we will ever forget their sacrifices, their dignity, and the overwhelming pride we feel for what they accomplished. Democrats. Republicans. Black. White. This weekend it doesn’t matter. We’re all one. May we all forever learn from them. For what they fought for.
__________
Article on MSNBC: “Up and down the Normandy coast, a rainy stretch of sand and rocks along the English Channel in northwestern France, the memory of what American troops did in that fateful June has remained tenaciously alive, enduring through the political disputes and personal exasperations that often divide leaders in Washington and Paris. Obama, who has scheduled a visit Saturday to the U.S. military cemetery at nearby Colleville-sur-Mer, will find himself in unusually friendly territory here, a place where people like his grandfather are still honored and the image of America as a force for good has remained largely untarnished.”
___________
MSNBC/NBC – excellent reporting this week from all the journalists who are traveling with President Obama.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:25:00 GMT

The week in review here @ FR. Sorry guys can’t give you two thumbs up this week! A ‘B’ performance at best! I was ready to overlook the disastrous performance on Monday… everyone’s entitled to an ‘off day’… then the site practically shuts down at noon yesterday for hours (WHAT did you take my nooner suggestion seriously?) LOL No sireee not your best week by far. But we love you anyway.

It was indeed a VERY bad week for the Republiklans & neocons! Continuing with the my way or the highway mentality will only lead to more bad weeks in the coming months/years!

I also made another observation this week. There are a couple of posters (who I’ve taken some shots at in the past) like B, LA & Grimey Grimes etc… who do not support our President. Having said that what I’ve noticed is they will at least give CREDIT where it’s due. And for that I not only say Thank You but I’m also optimistic that at some point rational people can come together with some kind of ‘common ground’!

No… it’s not going to be a Kumbuya (sp?) moment… but they are willing to think outside the box of rhetoric the right wing whack jobs spew forth so effortlessly!

I’ve said it before and as Tarlazan and others mentioned yesterday this country is effectively governed from the Center. Hell I even went after one of ‘my own libs’ for inciting the instant gratification factor and the truth is that no POTUS of either party has ever or will ever deliver 100% of want YOU want!

So in closing… I look forward to having reasonable discourse with members of the opposition who are at least able to form a coherent thought! And for the whack jobs… I say Bring It ON!

Sorry about the ‘Math shot’ there Grimey… who would have thought?? I’m glad it at least made you laugh. :0)

I’d like to pose a question to my fellow ‘lefties’… If you won a dinner with a pundit who would you want to have a conversation with and why?

I believe you all know my answer and why… but would like to see what others think!

And once again:

David Gregory has GOT to go
Replace him NOW with Lawrence O’!!!

To all my lib friends… have a great weekend… I’m off to a Celebration of Life to honor my mother who is a 5 year cancer survivor. Yes it returned a month or so ago but she’s fighting it with the same tenacity she did the first time around! The fact that she has excellent health insurance has given her access to the newest & best treatments available. Unfortunately others are not so blessed… I’m confident that I will be attending another Celebration 5 years from now. Mom… I’m so PROUD of you!

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Chuck, WA — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:25:46 GMT

Sudden thoughts and second thoughts

Go ahead and admit it, you feel energized this morning; don’t you? I say “thank you Mr. President” for your speech in Cairo yesterday. Doesn’t it seem fair that an open invitation to a notable Muslim leader to speak here should be extended?

Is this the final unraveling of Rush Limbaugh? Don’t you think he is ‘losing it’?

“Much ado about nothing” captures the anti-Sotomayor detractors. I guess this is what we can expect from Wing Nuts and the G ‘NO’ P from now on…attack, slash and flame-out.

Are there any unemployed GOP voters? If so, how do you reconcile your job loss with your party’s economic policies?

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Mookie M., NJ — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:29:06 GMT

First Read: " Secretary of State Clinton made perhaps the most important comment after Obama’s big speech yesterday, when she said, "Now we have to get to work to translate that into concrete action." "

Which came as a complete surprise to Obama in that he thought speeches were action.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

TT Tomm — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:32:51 GMT

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Beverly in Chicago — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:33:28 GMT

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Stenner Brown — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:34:09 GMT

>> Obama said that his great-uncle helped liberate Auschwitz, which would have been impossible -- unless his great-uncle served in the Red Army, <<

Oh, I think this one is probably true!

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Nashville_fan — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:36:36 GMT

One important factor that is often missed when discussing Middle East peace is the economic reality of the situation.

The United States of America cannot AFFORD to continuously invade a Muslim country every 10 years at the cost of 12 billion dollars or more a month in an attempt to engineer a forced "peace" with Israel.

For all those who feel that President Obama is making us look "weak", please remember back to the scene we faced last summer: when President Bush attended the opening ceremonies for the Beijing Olympics, and was seen having a congenial time with Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, while simultaneously Russia was powerfully beating back Georgian troops from South Ossetia - a powerful reminder that for all America's talk - we are very LIMITED it what we are WILLING to do in our current military and economic situation. Bluster has a real, tangible cost.

Despite Senator McCain's contention that we were all "Georgians" now, most Americans realized that we were not in the best position to declare War on Russia. (The Russians CLEARLY realized it.)

And so it is with Israel today. While our support of Israel remains strong, the reality is, it is in America's long term military and ECONOMIC interest to help foster a LASTING PEACE in the Middle East . . . and that requires ALL SIDES to face REALITY . . . the status quo is unsustainable and inhumane. Period.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Texy Tim — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:37:01 GMT

Woo, a half a pecent added on to the unemployment number. That is huge! What ever happened to all those "Shovel Ready" projects Obama and Biden kept babbling about when they wanted their trillion dollars in stimulus money? Something is being "shoveled" on the American people alright, and it sure smells like pony poop.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Jimmy in Accounting — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:38:54 GMT

Had it not been for the stimulus the unemployment rate would be much worst. It has not been a year yet. The wackos out from the Right Wing Dings there will not co-operate because they think the down trodden are takers.
Beverly in Chicago

++++++++++++++++

On top of this you have subtract all the jobs that will be lost because the government has to collect taxes to pay for the stimulus money they spent. Or did you think that money was free?

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Anita, Birmingham, Alabama — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:39:10 GMT

Reflections:

President Obama made a wonderful speech; His professionalism, intellect, and classy, representation of our nation just speaks volumes. Even though there are those that still wish to find fault in his leadership capabilities by continuing to voice gloom, doom and hopelessness; the majority of us logical and sound people really do love and respect our nation and it’s principals on which it was founded, can’t help but once again feel pride in our great nation. What President Obama is attempting to accomplished will once again restore our nation to its great and moral standing.

The far right renegade’s are insisting on spreading their rancid, thoughtless ideas; constantly miss this mark.” In order to get anyone to listen to you…the person (s) attention you are seeking must respect you”. Sadly we lost the respect of other nations while the Bush Administration was in the White House and most gratefully…we are finally regaining it back.

Pundits can say what ever they choose to say and I for one think that it is out of jealousy and fear. The fear is of revenge because of their past evils. Know this…your fear will be you own undoing, we are seeking to regain our rightful place amongst other nations, we aren’t concerned about your petty misgivings.

It is a sad day when Americans allow a hand full of thugs to dictate their fate. These are not the Americans that I grew up to know and respect.

Sadly they speak of patriotism, when the only people they consider Americans are themselves. It is mind boggling to say the least that a band of renegade urchins seek to take it upon themselves to be the voice of this great democracy.

This band of renegades have successfully scared the hell out of their followers and are now mad as hell that they can’t frighten us.

To all of my brothers and sisters that are concerned enough to voice their opinions, lend their expert advice, research and lend their time and attention to this great and worthy cause, I want you all to know that I love and appreciate each one of you…keep up the excellent work.

They can’t stand it and whenever something most excellent occurs they descend on this site in droves, in attempts to tare down and disrupt our progress; they remind me of cockroaches (as Feisty once said), when you turn on the lights, you can see them and they start running like hell. Well cockroaches we are the exterminators ….so prepare to be exterminated.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

J. Ellis, Virginia — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:41:10 GMT

Feisty, best wishes to your mom in her fight against cancer. I'm stoked to begin work at the grassroots level to get Healthcare Reform under way this weekend. Quality, affordable healtcare for every American is our goal. In this effort, I'm assured I'm not only helping my country and my President, but also my fellowman.

Regarding the Virginia Governor race: Creigh Deeds is the most qualified to beat the Republican candidate, who won't admit in his commercial that he even is a Repub. I wonder why that is?

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

The - Democrat Soldier — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:45:02 GMT

The GOP cries about our federal government trying to create socialism; but here we have two GOP governors trying to play dictators.

They seem to forget they are elected officials and were put in their position to work on the interests of the people of their state; not their political careers – that’s what dictators do.

GOP's are complete hypocrites and silent dictators.

Thank you and GOD BLESS AMERICA

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

BJ, CA — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:46:07 GMT

The only jobs getting larger are again with those that are marking our future..look out another train wreck looms...
Fool me once shame on you...fool me twice well I must like being rolled over...sale it baby...
does anyone remember the last time Obama went to Germany..didn't the housing and banking markets collapse?

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Nashville_fan — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:46:55 GMT

"One, it's an acknowledgment by the administration that they need to start tackling this deficit issue (public is starting to notice the money being spent). Two, it may inadvertently imply that the administration is now ruling out the idea of a "second stimulus." - First Read

==================================================
I'm just guessing that the Obama Administration will make the decision about whether or not to pursue additional stimulus funds based on how the economy is doing, not on all the political posturing that doesn't help anybody.

Nobody wants to just throw money into a black hole, but the "let's do nothing" because "government is bad" crowd is a constant reminder of the real problem with so many in politics - they sabotage the government from within for personal gain and then complain that the government is ineffective.

You don't say.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Beverly in Chicago — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:49:22 GMT

Right wing Dings;
Read this before you start trying to put the president down.
You will never be President!!! If you continue it your way you will be in the 60% bankrupt.
May you never get sick since all you what to do is characterize the people who have been victims of your assaults and your former leaders (thieves); especially heartless Cheney as the great hope.
<><><><><><><<>>>>>><>><<>>>>>><>><>><>><<>><>>
Lynn Cheney please get on your white horse and ride away.
<><><><><><><<>>>>>><>><<>>>>>><>><>><>><<>><>>
The next thing you need to know are the facts...
The bulk of the money so far has come in the form of a middle-class tax break, increased unemployment benefits and food stamps, and federal assistance to prevent cuts in Medicaid. The infrastructure projects that many people imagine are only just beginning, with 545 under way as of the end of April, according to the House Transportation and Infrastructure Committee. A total of $116 billion, about 15 percent of the plan, has been "obligated." That is defined as money made available to state and local governments or committed to a specific project.
Jobs
We’re also likely to hear that the stimulus package has created or saved more than 150,000 jobs and will create or save another 600,000 jobs by August. These estimates are based on economic models by the president’s Council of Economic Advisers. So how many jobs have really been created? As my colleague Olga Pierce has noted, the world may never know
As of April 30, the transportation and infrastructure projects have created or saved 7,700 jobs , according to a recent congressional report. But the main source of jobs so far has probably come in layoffs averted. For example, the stimulus package enabled Virginia to prevent cutting 13,000 school janitors, secretaries and other administrative employees, according to a report released yesterday by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. The liberal-leaning think tank concludes that federal aid to states has closed roughly 30 percent to 40 percent of state budget gaps.

Jobs may not be
But CNN reports that one of the earliest stimulus achievements—the rescue of 25 Columbus, Ohio, police recruits who were about to be laid off—is in peril. Those same recruits could lose their jobs at the end of the year if city voters don’t pass a tax hike.

One more indicator:
Dow Jones announced today that it has created an economic stimulus index composed of 50 construction, alternative energy and telecom stocks expected to benefit from the recovery act. As of yesterday’s close, the index was up 1.62 percent since the start of the year. Source: alternet

SO STOP BLAMING OUR PRESIDENT; TAKE YOUR BLINDERS OFF!
HOW MANY JOBS DID BUSH/CHENEY GIVE BEFORE AND AFTER iRAQ?

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

J. Ellis, Virginia — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:49:30 GMT

Nothing ever gets solved with Obama. Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Surely you can't be serious about this statement! Staying the course, in case you forgot, never solved these wars either. All that deficit spending you mentioned was GWB's problem as well, but he didn't have a clue about how to handle it. At least the President is doing all that he can to shore up the economy, create/save jobs and bring these wars to an end. They are causing the US to hemmorhage internally, but I agree, his speeches are not only pretty, but pretty darn effective.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Drew, Cincinnati, Ohio — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:49:54 GMT

TT
The shovel ready projects are coming but the shovels are being used to dig out from 8 years of republican control. You guys left the barn doors open and we the Democrats now have to clean up. Why don't you try coming up with real solutions instead of snide remarks! Oh that's right you don't have solutions. The good thing is Democrats are good at cleaning up Republican messes just look at history. We cleaned up after Reagan, Bush, and now Bush Jr.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Eric, Salinas, CA — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:50:06 GMT

I'm glad that we have Hillary as Secretary of State as she and Obama make a great diplomatic team. It's good to see that George Mitchell is heading to the Middle East to get Isreal and the Palestinians working on resolving their problems. Hopefully he'll be able to get both sides to make concessions so that peace can finally take hold.

Yes it is good that we start talking about an exit strategy from too much government stimulus now, so that when the time comes that the government can stop stimulating the economy we have a plan in place to reduce the deficit inherited from the incompetent bushwhacker administration.

The high unemployment rate we now have is proof that the bushwhacker and the repugnant ones outsourcing of American manufacturing jobs just to break up the union's power was a total bust for our country. Time to cut out the tax credit for outsourcing our jobs and to give American businesses a tax credit for creating jobs here in our own country.

In Hillary We Trust!
Go Lakers!

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

jesse St Paul MN — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:50:45 GMT

Glad to see the gas bags being called out by there own states.Sanfords a out of touch die hard who is forced to play the billy bad a$$,or the neos won't dig deep.Palin is different,her state is run by big OIL,she is a front person for them,that simple,both Sarha and the Oilers.75 000 fewer jobs lost,75,000 family's spared by the stim package.The wheels or recovery are starting to turn,and will run over those who choose to attempt to derail.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

cindy, las vegas, nv — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:51:20 GMT

Well said Anita, and back at you. You bring much to the table here along with many others. I am grateful! Enjoy your weekend.

justthinkinoutloud - hope to hear from you re Governor here in our state. I'm waiting to see someone step up to the plate. I find it hard to believe Gibbons wants to run again. Don't know of anyone here who supports him.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Nashville_fan — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:51:22 GMT

Have a great time with your mom Feisty . . . now we know where all that fighting spirit came from, huh? :)

P.S. The pundit I'd like to dine with? It's a tie between Eugene Robinson and David Gergen. But of course, that's only if Chuck Todd is not available! (He's so busy you know!)

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Dee Dee, Denver — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:51:25 GMT

Chuck WA - Go ahead and admit it, you feel energized this morning; don’t you?

The North Koreans feel energized too. They're very excited about their new long range missile, which is sitting on the pad, getting ready to be launched. Chuck, did you know this is the missile can reach Washington? Exciting times indeed.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Ed, San Antonio — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:52:35 GMT

Speaking to Tom Brokaw concerning the atrocities at Buchenwald, the POTUS says "I have no patience for people who would deny history".

This in and of itself is troubling since we (the administration) does not want to "look backward, only move forward" concerning torture by the previous administration.

Move forward, YES! Look backward, INVESTIGATE!

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

jawillie, Philadelphia, PA. — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:57:04 GMT

>>>I’d like to pose a question to my fellow ‘lefties’… If you won a dinner with a pundit who would you want to have a conversation with and why?
Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL (Sent Friday, June 05, 2009 9:25 AM)
==========
Believe it or not, I'd pick George Will, conservative columnist. Although he's not someone I'd agree with, he seems to be one of the more level headed ones. It'd be interesting to find out how he sees his party's future.

>>>Is this the final unraveling of Rush Limbaugh? Don’t you think he is ‘losing it’?

Are there any unemployed GOP voters? If so, how do you reconcile your job loss with your party’s economic policies?
Chuck, WA (Sent Friday, June 05, 2009 9:25 AM)
==========
One at a time. First, I predict that Rush is going to suffer a massive coronary or a stroke by years end. Seriously. He's overweight, his cholestorol (sp?) is probably off the charts, he's a recovering addict, and he's practically thrown himself into hysterics over Obama. You may say he's become obsessed with it. If the economy does begin to recover this year (and experts say we are in the beginnings of a recovery), he's going to completely lose it.

The answer to your second question is simple. They'll just blame Obama, democrats, liberals, media, anyone but their party.

http://jawillie.blog.com

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Chris - IL — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:57:19 GMT

President Obama has always realized that once the economy picks up, he would need to start cutting spending to pull the deficit back in line. He has a long way to go to get us back to the point we were in during the end of the Clinton Presidency, when we were actually running a surplus!

I am confident he will work with congress to find ways to cut spending and get us back on track. But it is still a little too early as the unemployment numbers suggest. It is certainly good to see that the ranks of newly unemployed has slowed since January, but I don't think we are out of the woods yet.

The middle east peace process will be long and painful and there are no easy answers. It is good that both the bush administration and the Obama administration recognized Palestine's side of the equation. Israel is not without fault in this terrible mess - but it certainly doesn't justify the actions taken by Hamas.

Last night I saw Crosby, Stills, & Nash in concert on the Chicago Lakefront and while I listened to their songs, I thought back to the 60s and 70s and felt a better appreciation for why what we did in Iraq is so wrong and why we are so hated by some in the middle east. Of particular impact was when they played the Jackson Browne song, Lives In The Balance - which is about how the US intervenes in other countries in the name of freedom, but in reality, it is only to serve our own interests.

Peace, man!

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Eric, Salinas, CA — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:58:39 GMT

Geez First Read aren't you expecting a bit much asking Crybaby Boehner and Bozo Eric Can'tor to discuss a stimulus exit strategy? They don't discuss, they just cuss up a storm whining about anything and everything. Still a funny question that will undoubtedly be ignored because they only answer to fox and freaks.

Lush Limburger has really gone off the rails now and it's time for someone to take up a collection to put him in a mental instituion to help him become safe and sane again. I so love how Keith mocks him with the Bouncing Blubbery Blabbermouth Bobblehead Doll he puts on screen now. Tamron Hall did a great putdown of a repugnant one pundit yesterday during her show with David Shuster on their Faceoff segment. I love that Shuster has brought back his Hypocrisy Watch.

It will be interesting to see which Democrat emerges from the crowded field in Virginia. I'm sure all of Hillary's supporters are backing McAuliffe, right? Whoever does emerge will be far better than the idiot repugnant one liar McDonnell.

In Olbermann We Trust!
In First Read We Trust!
Go Lakers!

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

American Joe — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:58:45 GMT

Job losses are declining and it appears the market is on a uptick, but don't let the facts get in your way GOP posters.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

B, La. — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:00:49 GMT

I agree with the Governers that are trying to decline some stimulus money if taking that money does in fact cause them to change their laws permanently. B/C these governers are thinking about the future, they know the spening that would be required by changing these laws is not sustainable.

As everyone states they were voted in to do what is best for there people. Thinking about the future of your people and your state is definently a good thing. On the other hand, if they're trying to turn it down just to be contrary then they should be voted out!

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Houston — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:03:30 GMT

Washington Times from previous article: “Funded and encouraged by the CIA, Iranian monarchists removed Mr. Mossadegh -- who had nationalized a British-owned oil company. The coup reinstalled Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, an autocratic ruler who was subsequently overthrown in a popular revolution in 1979."
----------------------------------------------------

Iran wasn't the only place where a democratically elected government was overthrown with the collusion of the CIA. Several South American democracies were destroyed with the collusion of the CIA, including Chile in the 1970's. That was back when the US was acting like a "self-interested empire."

I wonder how many Americans had any idea what President Obama was talking about when he brought up the Iranian coup. The historical fact that the US has assisted in the overthrow of democracies doesn't fit with the myth that the US does nothing but selflessly spread democracy that those in power have promoted while they were doing the exact opposite.

I also wonder what Iran would be like today without the US meddling. There would have been no brutal Shah to be overthrown by crazy Islamic extremists. What would the Middle East be like today if a powerful democracy had existed in Iran for half a century.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Erin, Chesapeake VA — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:03:34 GMT

J Ellis in Virginia,

I'm not sure what ads you're seeing. Of the ads airing in Tidewater, I think the McDonnell ads are far better ones than the McAuliffe ones, though I like Deeds' as well. But I really like McDonnell's biography commercials, even if the family ones are a bit cheesy. They're a lot easier to watch than attack ads.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Anita, Birmingham, Alabama — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:04:11 GMT

*** Sanford’s and Palin’s stimulus setbacks: Speaking of the stimulus, two conservative GOP governors -- South Carolina’s Mark Sanford and Alaska’s Sarah Palin, both 2012 possibilities -- appear to have suffered setbacks in their crusades against the Obama stimulus. The South Carolina Supreme Court yesterday ordered Sanford to request $700 million in stimulus funds (intended primarily for the states struggling schools), and Sanford says he’ll comply with that request. Meanwhile, the Alaska Legislature seems poised to override Palin’s veto of $28.6 million in stimulus money.

Looks like dumb and dumber are in trouble. Sanford's refusal was for political reasons. He just wanted it noted. Palin's is just plain stupid. She knows that Alaska needs those funds and the Alaska Legislature should override her veto. Oh the politics...

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

J. Morrison, Miami FL — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:05:07 GMT

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Tzalaran — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:05:26 GMT

On top of this you have subtract all the jobs that will be lost because the government has to collect taxes to pay for the stimulus money they spent. Or did you think that money was free?

Jimmy in Accounting (Sent Friday, June 05, 2009 9:38 AM)
********************************************************
Red Herring argument. most businesses will not flounder from a 1-2% tax hike, and those that do are just using it as an excuse to get rid of people in the first place. i know this is Rush's big talking point about the evils of taxes, but every small business that i know will laugh at the prospect of a 2% tax hike forcing them to cut jobs. they will need to expand clientèle, sell more, or cut back certain expenditures, but the claim that a 1-2% (hell, even up to 5%, beyond that level, it is possible that some labor costs may have to go depending on the previous bottom line of the company) tax increase will force them to cut their workforce is a sham.

but hey, propaganda isn't designed to be truthful. its designed to brainwash the weak minded who hang on their demagogue's every word...

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

eagle1776 — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:05:28 GMT

What ever happened to all those "Shovel Ready" projects Obama and Biden kept babbling about when they wanted their trillion dollars in stimulus money? Something is being "shoveled" on the American people alright, and it sure smells like pony poop.
Texy Tim (Sent Friday, June 05, 2009 9:37 AM)

You must live in one of those states where the governor said no to the stimulus money. I live where it has already being used. New jobs have been created and old jobs retained.

It has been said time and time and time again (put your listening ears on next time, will ya?) that the stimulus won't kick in, in some places, until late Summer or early Fall.

President Obama's speech in Cairo was outstanding. Secretary Clinton stated the obvious and what President Obama also stated that we must no act. We cannot do it alone, however. With Netanyahu as Israel's Prime Minister it is going to be difficult as he is stubborn and opposes any peace with the Palestinians.

The main thing is that we try and we show our willingness to be the broker of peace as Jimmy Carter did between Egypt and Israel which won him a Nobel Prize.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

But don't let that fact get in your way — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:06:12 GMT

Job losses are declining and it appears the market is on a uptick, but don't let the facts get in your way GOP posters.

Unemployment is at its highest rate since 1983.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Skipper — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:07:00 GMT

Job losses are declining and it appears the market is on a uptick, but don't let the facts get in your way GOP posters.
American Joe

Throw the drowning man another anvil.

Is Bush had these economic numbers, liberals would be throwing up on themselves.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Thanks, Gov — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:08:54 GMT

B in La is right. I recall seeing Ed Rendell on one of the Sunday shows a few months ago as the stimulus was being discussed. He was posed the question 'doesn't getting the short term money create long term entitlement problems for you in your state?' and his response was 'yes, but I can't worry about that, we need the money now.'

So he'll be leaving behind a problem for his successor but essentially, he doesn't care.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Chris - IL — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:09:10 GMT

The republicans continuing to express dismay at the jobs situation are really amazing. The AP report this morning shows that the pace of job loss is slowing. And it shows that the worst month of this recession in terms of job loss was January, 2009.

Now I'm sure that the right wing nuts will blame President Obama for that, because after all, he took office on January 20th and in their minds, a Democrat is a complete failure if they can't reverse a trend started by the previous administration in their first 11 days in office. It is interesting that they completely ignore the fact that the job losses started in January of 2008, and peaked in January of 2009, and somehow President Obama is the cause of all our economic woes!

On the plus side, the economy does look like it is turning around, and that should help the Democrats gain more ground in the 2010 elections. I think President Obama has been doing a great job at tackling the large array of significant problems. When you think back to John McCain having to suspend his campaign to deal with the banking crisis, it has to make you glad that we have an energetic multi-tasker in the White House!

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

TT Tomm — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:10:28 GMT

TT
The shovel ready projects are coming
Drew, Cincinnati, Ohio

No Drew - "Shovel Ready" means shovel ready. Nothing was ready though. Those jobs Obama and Biden talked about aren't there.

And I've deleted your cut and paste whining from the dailykos to save a few electrons.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Frank "Grimey" Grimes, Springfield, USA — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:11:48 GMT

Pat, Boston...Very well said about D-Day. Both of my grandfathers were involved in that battle. Definitely a day to come together and remember all of those sacrifices.

Feisty...I am most certainly a conservative, but I will absolutely praise the President when I agree with him. I thought he did very well with that speech. I was impressed. I will also point out when I disagree with him. That being said, I think that we on the right look ridiculous when we go after things like teleprompters and slight slip-ups in wording. If you are going to disagree, make it a disagreement about policy. I disagree with a lot of his fiscal policies and I'll point that out. (I am very fiscally conservative, but much more moderate socially).

Have a great weekend.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Anita, Birmingham, Alabama — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:14:33 GMT

Oh hell the Governors that are refusing the stimulas money aren't concerned about laws in their states (we established and debated that fact long ago out here), it's strictly politics always have been.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Houston — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:17:15 GMT

BJ, CA "does anyone remember the last time Obama went to Germany..didn't the housing and banking markets collapse?"
----------------------------------------------

That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. Maybe you should send in your idea to Rush Limbaugh. Given his demonstrated fondness for spouting nonsense, he might use it.

BTW: MSNBC reported a couple days ago that the unemployment rolls did not increase last week for the first time in many months. It might be another sign that the recession has bottomed out. If so, that's going to put wingnuts in a tizzy.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Hawk Eye — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:18:01 GMT

It has been said time and time and time again (put your listening ears on next time, will ya?) that the stimulus won't kick in, in some places, until late Summer or early Fall- eagle1776

Most of the stimulus money will be spent after 2011. Most of the stimulus money this year was used to help states balance their budgets for just this year. Not one job will be created by that money. Maybe those are the jobs, state government jobs btw, that Obama talks about being "saved"?

It really is clear from your statements you don't have clue about how, where, or when the stimulus money is being spent. Maybe it's you that should put on "Your listening ears" as you say.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Tzalaran — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:18:20 GMT

The answer to your second question is simple. They'll just blame Obama, democrats, liberals, media, anyone but their party.

jawillie, Philadelphia, PA. (Sent Friday, June 05, 2009 9:57 AM)
*****************************************************
i disagree. They'll blame everything but their 'ideology'. Their party gets thrown under the bus as fast as Powell, Chuck Hagel, or McCain did. The thing that has these people at a loss is their blind faith in conservative ideology, and their inability to move beyond its limits when it fails. (Bush 43's administration showed the failure of conservatism because it abandoned values in the face of threat and stress).

that combined with our lack of industrial production restricted the ability of wartime action to spur the economy. we are having to pay to fight the war, and in WWII those payment went to the factories and plants in the US, keeping the investment here. now, we are having to send that money elsewhere and it didn't stimulate the economy and reversed the concept that "war is good for the economy" that has always been a staple of conservative philosophy.

its the party, the elected officials, the opposition, the commies, the greenies, the socialists, the abortion lovers, the GLTB communities, the teachers, the unions, or anything else they can come up with at that moment, because as Rush says, "The principles of conservatism are timeless, and always relevant." This blind belief in their ideology blinds them to the true issues and how to answer them. (Tax cuts is not a panacea, it only works when tax rates are significantly higher, as the bell curve peaks at about a 20-25% tax rate, higher than this and their philosophy is applicable, below this rate the diminishing returns in revenue causes the mantra of 'tax cuts' to fail.)

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

B, La. — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:20:11 GMT

Houston--
Do you think the US has done more harm than good in the world?

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Anita, Birmingham, Alabama — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:20:15 GMT

but hey, propaganda isn't designed to be truthful. its designed to brainwash the weak minded who hang on their demagogue's every word...
Tzalaran

Well said...a sane mind!

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Rick, NC — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:23:23 GMT

I swear, sometimes it seems like FR is more interested in hashing over inane statements or postulations instead of just reporting the news...well that and their obscene pandering to the worst of the rightwingnut clan like buchanan or rushthedruggie...

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

katiec — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:26:13 GMT

Good job today, FR. You gave our president an even break! Keep up the good work.
We all have to believe we are being led by intelligent, capable, sincere people who are doing
everything they can to resolve all the crisises they
were handed. And, we have to be patient as the problems created over these last eight years will not be resolved overnight.
Of, course there are those who will not give our president and his administration credit for anything but they most certainly are not the majority.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

American Joe — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:27:20 GMT

Unemployment is at its highest rate since 1983.

Is Bush had these economic numbers, liberals would be throwing up on themselves.

These are a direct result of the previous administration. Once again to those who don't understand Econ 101. Jobs are lagging indicator of our economy usually 6 months to a year and unfortunately won't return till 6 months to a year after the market returns. Who was in office a year ago? That's what I thought! Just the facts, but like I said, don't let facts get in your way.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

DP - MI — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:29:27 GMT

BTW: MSNBC reported a couple days ago that the unemployment rolls did not increase last week for the first time in many months. It might be another sign that the recession has bottomed out. If so, that's going to put wingnuts in a tizzy.
Houston

Let me guess - you go to faith healers and palm readers too. Any one with an ounce of brains doesn't look at one data point, but looks at trends. Here is something simple that even you can follow: If the trend of job losses declining continues over the next 6 months, that's good. If not, that's bad.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

B, La. — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:32:09 GMT

I agree with Feitsy in regards to FR moderation. There should be a full-time dedicated moderator for FR instead of one of the three doing it when they get around to it.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Fools — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:34:12 GMT

Nothing ever gets solved with Obama. Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Troops will be in Iraq until 2012, Afghanistan until whenever. Economy? Getting dragged down by all the deficit spending which shows no end in sight. Unenployment keeps going up. States budgets, the Dutch Boy (Obama) put his finger in the dyke (note there are no references to Hillary here) for this year, but things look worse next year. Taxes are up, tax revenues are down. Nothing gets solved with Obama. But he sure gives a pretty speech now doesn't he?
TT Tomm (Sent Friday, June 05, 2009 9:32 AM)
____________

So, Obama threatens to withdraw all the troops immediately, and everyone pithces a fit. So, he decides to withdraw them slowly, and people still have a fit.

You just have to love it. No matter what he says, no matter what he does, it seems destined that there will always be a talking point designed to show it was a bad idea.

Perhaps you would care to enlighten us on exactly how the wars would look, and exactly how the economy would look, under President McCain? What would he be doing differently about the wars right now? Would he have withdrawn the troops, or would both wars still be going on? You think the economy would have magically recovered in 100 days under McCain? Fine, tell us how.

People keep asking that question, yet no one seems to want to answer it.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Anita, Birmingham, Alabama — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:36:54 GMT

But don't let that fact get in your way:
Too late...it has already been established that jobs will continue to slide until it levels off. Your doom and gloom is best served some place else.

We lost less jobs than expected. We are slowly leveling off. Economics 101 teaches us that the recession that we suffered (due to Bush's BS), BTW started in 2007 and in 2008 when the s*** hit the fan...will continue on for a while...we lost a lot of jobs, we were in what would have been another great depression had the population been the same as 1932.

Actually the stimuls is working. We are already starting to see the decline in unemployment. We will not see a starting recovery until the end of 2009.

Do you have any idea how many jobs have been lost? How many businesses we have lost? How much revenue the stock market has lost? Housing, manufacturing and construction....

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Clara Kansas City, MO — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:38:21 GMT

I've got a new 'theory':

Eric, Salinas is Domenico's dad AND Richard, Washington State is Mark's dad. Rarely does anyone get a post through bashing Eric (yeah - I've got one for you - the faux apology yesterday burned my ass) and Richard is able to get the final word on more than a statistical norm in any given week. Pandering to the Father base, boys? Just curious.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Chris - IL — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:39:52 GMT

Houston--
Do you think the US has done more harm than good in the world?

B, La. (Sent Friday, June 05, 2009 10:20 AM)
--------------------------------------------------------

I know you didn't address that question to me, but I think it is a very good and very tough question. I think the answer depends on the region and the period in time.

In general, I would say we have done more good than harm. But to people that have suffered at the hands of a brutal regime we supported, propped up, or created, they don't care. When we support a brutal regime (such as the Shah of Iran), it creates extremism and makes it easy for that extremism to take hold.

It is important for us to understand the good and the bad that we've done in order to be able to put things in context and understand the position others are coming from. Many have said President Obama is weak for "apologizing for America." But our side, the side that says he looks strong, realizes that by admitting where you aren't perfect and need to improve, you open them up for negotiation.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

The GOP descent into obscurity continues — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:40:05 GMT

You can see this President of the Unitied States deal Obama has isn't going to be big enough for him. I imagine Obama looks at himself as being more a Gandhi type of guy then just being President. That way he can share his wisdom around the world as he sees fit. One small issue to iron out though - Did Gandhi use a teleprompter?
J. Morrison, Miami FL (Sent Friday, June 05, 2009 10:05 AM)
___________

The teleprompter jokes really make your party look assinine. Do you realize that? Would you rather hear a yokel spouting words like "nucular" and "strategery" all the time? What faith can you put in a man who can't even pronounce words properly. Who was writing his speeches, Ren and Stimpy?

But yes, please go ahead and continue to do nothing but make teleprompter jokes. If that is the only thing you can continually find to say bad about the man, then he must be doing a lot of things right.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Omaar,Sandy Springs, Georgia — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:46:15 GMT

When Future [2012] Presidential & Political Ambitions, get in the Way the State's Needs, Especially when it Comes to Attempts to Block [Education Funds]in Two Distinct States that Lead the Nation,in Drop Out Rates and in Failing of National Standard Testing....

Plain & Sanford are 2 [Hollow,Floating,Bubbles]
-----------------------------

Sanford’s and Palin’s stimulus setbacks: Speaking of the stimulus, two conservative GOP governors -- South Carolina’s Mark Sanford and Alaska’s Sarah Palin, both 2012 possibilities -- appear to have suffered setbacks in their crusades against the Obama stimulus. The South Carolina Supreme Court yesterday ordered Sanford to request $700 million in stimulus funds (intended primarily for the states struggling schools), and Sanford says He’ll comply with that request.

Meanwhile, the Alaska Legislature seems poised to override Palin’s Veto of $28.6 million in stimulus money.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Jody, Iowa — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:50:54 GMT

Many thoughtful posts today, always a pleasure to read.

Just listened to 3 excellent, contemplative speeches from Buchenwald. Elie Wiesel was the last and what powerful words his were. He asked, will the world ever learn the lessons of the holocaust? I wonder that as well when too often we choose bullets instead of diplomacy to prove how powerful we are and fear to keep the citizens from asking too many questions. Very moving pictures and words. Looking forward to Normandy tomorrow.

Another fun week at FR. MSNBC's traveling journalists have provided excellent reporting from abroad. Enjoyed Brian William's White House special this week. I'm still absorbing Pres Obama's excellent speech yesterday and with every replay of clips, I'm reminded that he touched many "third rails" in it. Whether you agree with Pres Obama or not, every American should be proud that OUR president is unafraid to speak truth about difficult topics expressing views that may NOT be what some of his constituents or other countries want to hear.

BJ, CA--did you forget that the last time then candidate Obama went to Germany, George Bush and Dick Cheney were in charge? Ahh, blame Pres Obama even though the housing and banking collapse occurred while Bush was in charge. Trying to rewrite history like Cheney and Liz, it won't work, there's too much tape out there to prove otherwise. BTW Cheney admitted that they left GM for Pres Obama to solve (get the blame), what wimps. Enjoy your weekend anyway.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Tim Stocken, Highland Lakes, NJ — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:51:58 GMT

Dresden, Germany, site of Kurt Vonnegut's masterpiece, Slaughterhouse Five - if ever there was a novel to end all wars, that was it. How will the critics attack this? I think by forcing the Germans to confront their massive contribution to the Jews fleeing Europe will shame Germany into actively working on the Israel - Palestine problem with us.

I understand the Obamas deserve a vacation, but I'm not looking forward to all the trite criticism the right will spew. After all, George W. settled for the farm for his pit stops. Kind of reminds me of the old song, "How ya gonna keep'em down on the farm, after they've seen Parrie?"

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Beverly in Chicago — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 14:53:01 GMT

Feisty

How many times do I have to second that motion and while we're at it let's get rid of Joe Scarborough and that Confederate guy Pat Buchanan. I just don't understand Mika. She has gone from a cheesscake to an unliberated woman to a clone of Joe. There is no way any real woman would allow Joe to yell and scream at her; especially you feisty. I sure as hell would shut his mouth once and for all. I really do want to see the real Mika. I believe if an even tempered David Schuster had the position many more people could tolerate Morning Joke. If Lawrence O Donell were the host you can believe he would only jump down the throats of antagonistic out -of--tune right Wing Dings. I love a strong man. Lawrence is strong. I love a sensual man. David Schuster is a sensible man. Then we have our Chris Matthews who send a tingle up and down my spine everyday with hid hard bill, analyst and plethora of know. We have our Keith who no one con every replace with his humorously serious analyst. And let's not forget our Precious little pop-culture whom I love dearly because she keeps me hip and informed in a cool way. Nobody can beat Rachel being the hottest and coolest on Mis-information.
Lastly enjoy you visit with your mom. A Mom is a precious thing to have. I cannot express how precious your time with her is. Mine is gone and I wish every day she was here.
Todaloo

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Sub Sailor — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:09:13 GMT

Once again many forget that unemployment is a trailing indicator of the economy. The recession began in December of 2007. So if the Bush Administration would have done something/anything maybe hundreds of thousands or even millions of jobs could have been saved. But no, you want to blame the Obama Administration, who has been in office only 4.5 months, for a problem that clearly started 18 months ago.
You seem to be upset with what he is doing to help rebuild the economy but at least he is trying to fix this complex problem unlike the last administration who sat on their hands for over a year.
Many conservatives love to acknowledge how great Ronald Regan was but they don’t talk the economic problems of his first term when both unemployment and inflation were above 10%.
Ten percent is an important benchmark for both unemployment and inflation and there is a chance we will see both within the next year. There is a better chance that unemployment will drop below 10% before inflation exceeds 10%. But inflation will rise, just like it did with Regan due to what had to be done to re-energize the economy.
Regan was able to accomplish stimulus with tax cuts because taxes were at higher rate than they have been since but some of the results of lower taxes are what we see today in our decaying infrastructure.
No matter what happens with the economy, unemployment and inflation just be sure to remember that when the problem started we were not informed and nothing was done for almost a year. History will probably show this delay in action to be a critical cause for the depth and length of this recession.

As an armchair quarterback evaluating all the government spending gives me ulcers. I have tried to look at it in a different way. I want to send my children to college because I know it will give them a better opportunity to achieve the American dream. To do this I must spend money I don’t have and my children will need student loans that they can’t afford and will take years to repay. This is much like what the government is doing, spending money they don’t have and will take years to repay so we can have a better future. Just like sending our children to college it is a gamble. Will they finish? Will they make good use of it? Will they end up in a dead end job and in debt forever? We don’t know but we got to give it a go. It’s the right thin to do.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Chris - IL — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:20:28 GMT

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

margaret, baltimore,md — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:25:15 GMT

...So he'll be leaving behind a problem for his successor but essentially he doesn't care.

THANKS GOV (sent Fri. June 5, 2009 1008 am)
######################################################

My sentiments exactly! That's exactly how my friends and I feel about the last president, George Bush! He reminds of a tenant who had the largest mansion in the country and before he left it, he set it comletely on fire and the next tenant, President Obama, had to come in and put the fire out. The only problem is, is that he is using a bucket and because there are so many things to be saved, it's going to take awhile. Meantime, you have his detractors on the outside(GOP and the rest of their crowd) hollering you're not doing enough, you're doing too much, when is it going to get better?!!!!!!!!! Oh, that crazy, insane, that disengenous ADHD crowd!! As one of my favorite pundits would say, WTF. PS: Lord, please let Sarah Palin run for president

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

B, La. — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:28:52 GMT

Chris -
Thanks for the response, I agree we have made mistakes in the past, in some I beleive we were trying to do what we thought was right and in others we were just serbing our own interests. But, like you i beleive we have overwhelmingly done more good then bad.
Honestly I wish we could just stay out of the world's affairs. I wish we didn't have to worry about the israeli/palestinian problem. B/C honestly it doesn't affect me and as a libertarian I don't care much about things that don't affect me.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

GP NW Indiana — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:31:17 GMT

BTW: MSNBC reported a couple days ago that the unemployment rolls did not increase last week for the first time in many months. It might be another sign that the recession has bottomed out. If so, that's going to put wingnuts in a tizzy. Houston (Sent Friday, June 05, 2009 10:17 AM)
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I am going to giggle like a little school girl when the jobs number goes positive...And because the GOP has done nothing, they will be able to claim absolutely zero credit.

Although i'm sure some will try and say it was the first 350 billion of the stimulus that bush signed (and then the money went POOF~!)

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Dave, Tn — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:43:51 GMT

Tzalaran (Sent Friday, June 05, 2009 10:18 AM)

Funny how the states with the worst budget problems, highest cost of living, biggest housing bubbles, highest taxes, fleeing tax base are all run by PC (Political Coward) Liberals. Hell your Pravda media can't even bring forth worthy human shields anymore.

http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1086-Ok,-Im-Done-With-Being-Nice.html

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

Gwen Winters, KC KS — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:08:07 GMT

I am going to giggle like a little school girl when the jobs number goes positive...And because the GOP has done nothing, they will be able to claim absolutely zero credit.

Although i'm sure some will try and say it was the first 350 billion of the stimulus that bush signed (and then the money went POOF~!)
GP NW Indiana (

You mean like it did 98% of the time when Bush was President?

What will you call the 5 million losses of jobs under the Obama administration? Backing up for a good start?

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

DP - MI — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:14:59 GMT

DP - MI (Sent Friday, June 05, 2009 10:29 AM)

Okay, lets look at the trend. New job losses started going up in January of 2008 and continued to increase through January 2009. February, March, and April were better than January. We will know more for sure in another few months, but it looks like things are starting to improve.

I know that really hurts those that wanted President Obama to fail. But it is good for our country and its people!
Chris - IL

Of course, that's if you only look at one specific set of numbers. People with a brain look at a lot of different things. One item people are looking at now are the under-employed, and the people that have just quit looking for work. Including those numbers, unemployment is well over 11%. Other numbers people with a brain look at is the debt and deficit, both of which are going up at an alarming rate - those are leading indicators btw. People at the Fed, weeeing they've diluted the dollar by printing more dollars, are also looking for inflation to tick up when that happens. That would be a very bad number to see rising.

But hey, keep the cheerleading up for Obama. You have a lot of company with the main stream media.

First thoughts: Obama in Germany

We're all hurting now — Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:17:44 GMT

Dave, Tn (Sent Friday, June 05, 2009 11:43 AM)

And yet, didn't Tennessee just pass excessive tax increases on cigarettes, alcohol, and other "vices"?

Oh well, at least you can now carry a gun into the bar.