http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspxFrom NBC's Kelly O'Donnell and Elizabeth WilnerPresident Bush will hold a news conference this morning just after 10:00 am ET. Topics will include an update on Bush's "consultative process on the new way forward in Iraq" and his "inclination" to increaseen-USCommunityServer 2.0 (Build: 60608.1)http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21679Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:49:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21679John Doe, Seattle, Wash.All rigthty then. All together now: Give me a D Give me an R Give me an A Give me an F Give me a T What doe that spell? That spells cannon fodder! Yeah! Go to team go!http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21680Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:53:04 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21680The Edge, Macon GADid napoleon wake up? No, it's just one of those pesky brain waves flying around his empty cranium...http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21682Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:33:44 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21682Brian, Cedar Hill, TXFool us once, shame on you. Fool us twice, shame on us. Fool us I don't know how many times? When are the citizens of this country going to wake up and finally say no to this Liar-in-Chief and get him out of office. He has been caught in God knows so many lies that he's untrustworthy and totally ineffective. I don't think he could lead this country out of a paper bag yet alone the hell HE got us into.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21683Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:35:49 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21683mikeeg,abdn,wabush has finally stopped telling the lie of we are winning when is he going to stop the rest of the lies. bush recently used the phrase "this war we find ourselves in" its like he just woke up and there is a war going on and noboby told him. then he says he is not satisfied with the way things are going. bush is the decider who started the war and bush is the decider who screwed the war up costing innocent american military lives.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21685Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:42:36 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21685Ken, Seattle WAI may just be a simple minded man, but i'm not real confident that the presidant is any smarter than a rock. Somebody please educate me: If we do manage to stabelize Iraq and install a democracy, What then? Is there all of a sudden less terrorist in the world? Or, on the other hand, are we going to have to invade Iran and start this whole fiasco all over again? Then Syria? This war an terror is going to take a long time when we are going about it this way.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21686Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:46:41 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21686Barbara Dallas TXHELLO - we are not winning the war in Iraq? Did someone inject one brain cell into Dubya's head? Well one more gereral getting out while the gettings good. Soon all of the stuff that rolls down hill will be rolling onto the military and away from Dubya and his second in command elf. I feel the same way the Dixie Chicks feel about 43.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21687Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:49:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21687Robert Catalano, Salem, ORWell, Bush finally admitted what most of the rest of the Americans and Iraqis with any kind of brain have known for months. I believe, however, this is a precursor to sending in more troops to "finish the job" which sounds like "peace with honor" to me. This gang of military industrial complex thugs and Constitution hijackers we have in Washington will play this war out until every dollar possible is squeezed out of the American citizen and until oil is guaranteed to flow. The past six years has been a disaster. It's not like we weren't warned. We elected an official who went from being hung-up on drugs and alcohol to being hung-up on Jesus, and another who never met a military contractor or energy executive he didn't like. It was a recipe for disaster; going to war over oil in an are which has been fighting amongst itself for over 2000 years. Michael Moore is starting to look like a genius. Hell, compared to this Administration a group of Down's Syndrome kids who work in a cafeteria could run the country better. Thanks George, for giving us a wonderful display of observing the obvious.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21688Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:51:02 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21688Diz, Catlettsburg, KYMaybe, GWB will finally admit he's been lying 2 us all along & in Fact has had no Plan 4 IRAQ. Maybe, he'll admit the DEmocrat's(The Unpatriotic) were right 2 years ago when they said we needed more troop's in Iraq. Maybe he'll admit that Cheney was really the 1 that outed Plame. Maybe he'll admit Finally that the War on Terror is actually the War 4 OIL, & we are winning ( just ask BP,Conaco,Exxon).Maybe he'll admit the Politic's of Fear worked longer than even he could have imagined. Maybe he'll admit Barney Cam is our Newest secret weapon & is ready 2 be Deployed. Naw, just an unrealistic X-Mas wish & we all know Santa isn't real. Merry X-Mas & Happy New Year 2 everyone.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21689Wed, 20 Dec 2006 14:56:10 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21689Lynette, NYC This president will not listen to reason. Instead of doing what EVERYONE wants and start bringing back our troops he plans on sending more. Unreal and Frightening. so much for a govt for the people by the people. Im sorry for everyone in the military at this moment in time. Your commander in chief is TRULY a madman.. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21693Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:15:18 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21693koothoosi, madison, alBUSH is Mother of all FLIP FLOPS! From the WMDs, to being against the 9/11 commission, to mission accomplished, to absolutely! we're winning the war, to the democrats shouldn't start measuring the drapes, now to no additional troops. He's such a sorry figure, I pity this unintelligent man who has lucked in to a job that is beyond his breaches.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21694Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:24:41 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21694Owen Vander, Evansville, INThe Chiefs of Staff : "More soldiers will not help the situation" Iraq Study Group : "Start bringing our forces home" Most Dems and many Repubs : "Start bringing our forces home" Majority of American People : "Bring our troops home" Dumbya : "Stay the course...with more force" Uncle Dick : "We are winning, there's money being made" McCain : "Me too! Elect me! I'm with my fellas. Send more troops. Vote for me! " What's that spell?? DDD RRR AAA FFF TTT Why are they so out of touch with reality? http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21696Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:39:51 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21696Ryan, MichiganI know I will get lit up for asking this. Yes, I am small minded, stupid, been locked in a closet for the past three plus years, a halfwit, a neocon, crazy right-winger, etc. But I must ask the question. How are we losing in Iraq? I know that we have lost many good lives fighting there and I understand that things have not gone as planned and mistakes have been made but really how are we losing? Iraq's economy is getting much stronger (next year it will grow about 5 times as fast as ours), elections have been held, and infastructure improvements are occuring everyday. I know that because of mistakes we made it hasn't happened as fast as everyone would've wanted and I understand that security is still a huge problem in parts of the country but I honestly want to know why everyone is so confident that not only are we losing we have already lost. In my narrow little neo-con mind I am probably missing something that I'm sure most of you will point out with class and respect:) but I'm just not seeing the fact that we have lost or are losing. I will say that things could be going better but I'm not sure if that defines losing or lost. I will be anxiously awaiting the name calling and utter contempt that will now occur.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21698Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:50:17 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21698ken, Seattle WAI wonder... If we spent the same amount of money trying to develope a technology that would make oil obsolete as the total dollar amount that is going to be spent on this war, would oil be obsolete?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21699Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:55:15 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21699Mark Thieme, Daly City, CAPresident George Bush WILL send troops into Sadr City and there will be a blood bath. His goal is to kill or capture Al Sadr who is already being groomed for the Osama Bin Laden proxy role. His "plan" is to go out like John Wayne, vintage John Ford. The great fear for America is that he will instead go out like Fess Parker at the Alamo. The Joint Chiefs, the Baker-Hamilton report, and his own father have tried to dissuade this Dr. Strangelove behavior. The American people have spoken loudly and he says today that he doesn't believe them. We have entered the Twilight Zone as a nation. God help us.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21700Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:58:43 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21700Lynette, NYC Ryan There is utter chaos going on Iraq as they are in the midst of a civil war now. Also the wealthy, educated Iraqui's have all moved to Jordan or are coming here. That leaves an uneducated, poor population with nothing left to lose. The war was started on the notion that Sadaam Hussain had WMD's pointed at us and that was not true. Our president cannot see that we must get out of Dodge so to speak and neither can you...... http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21701Wed, 20 Dec 2006 15:58:48 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21701Nick, OhioGive me a 1, 2, 3... what're we fightin' for? Ya know I don't give a crap, 'bout fightin' in Iraq. My apologies to the original composer of this anti-Vietnam war tune. So, adding more troops will solve it all? We'll be able to win? Hmmm... this sounds all too familiar to what happened in Vietnam. How will adding more troops help? What is the definition of 'winning'??? Has Bush completely gone mad??? This man needs to be impeached, tarred & feathered and be done with his rule. Cheney should be jailed for his actions in so many instances, the least of which is the Plame affair (which he is supposed to give testimony towards). I've an idea!!! Let's have the Bush girls be the first 2 to be drafted and immediately shipped to a battle zone in Iraq. Yeah, right. The time to add more troops to this complete and utter failure of a war, was back in 2003. I was against this war then and am even more so now. It is insanity at its best (or worst) and only serves one purpose: someone is making money somewhere... follow that trail and you'll find the real reason for this war. If Bush were truely a Christian then he'd be a pacifist. Peace.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21704Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:06:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21704Seattle SueRyan I think you answered your own question in the first paragraph of your post.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21707Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:12:34 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21707Steve Turner Cedar Falls IowaRyan. Just curious. How do you define 'Pregnant'?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21709Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:15:03 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21709Nick, OhioRyan, how can you say we are winning when there is no order in Iraq? Are people able to have as much as they had under Saddam's rule? Are they able to go out and travel without fear of being kidnapped or killed? Can a man be in a hospital after dark to be with his wife or wounded child and not fear being kidnapped? Can Iraq use its oil for its own use and benefit? Is Iraq unified behind one leader? Is there a cessation in civil war activities where Sunnis kill Shias and Shias kill Sunnis? What has the Bush administration labelled as success? Do we know when we've won? How do you measure that? How can we say that their infrastructure is being rebuilt when most of the money we've sunk into that war has gone not for reconstruction, but into the pockets of Halliburton and their subsidiaries over corrupt actions? How can we expect to pay many millions of $$ for a simple bridge that some local Iraqis could have built for $500,000? Iraq is a hopeless case as long as we're the ones leading the work. We need to regroup, retreat and let the Iraqis determine their own future. They can get our money for rebuilding AFTER they end their violence upon one another. They can be the ones to be in-charge of rebuilding their country. They can be the ones to profit from the sale of their oil. They can be the ones to work out peaceful settlements with their neighbors of Syria, Iran and Saudi Arabia. They need our money, but not our military. Our military can NEVER rebuild that country. Their military can learn to protect their country. Their police can stop the sectarian violence if they wish to do so. We cannot prevent that violence from occurring, no matter how many troops we send to Iraq. Get a life, get upset and call for the impeachment of Bush and his cronies.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21711Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:16:03 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21711DJLIf the US military wasn't in Iraq, we'd have plenty of troops available for the war on terror. Heck, we might even have won in Afghanistan by now if we hadn't taken most resources into Iraq instead.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21712Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:16:11 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21712Steve Turner Cedar Falls IowaWhat Dubya meant to say was that we're winning the 'Stalemate'.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21713Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:19:02 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21713JIrby, Colorado Springs, CoReally good speech! I think Bush did an excellent job of creating the impression that he isn't the worst president in American history. Good job of acting like someone playing with a full deck. At first, the assumption was that he had admitted we weren't winning in Iraq. When pressed, he added that we weren't losing either. I would like to add my own assessment to that: we're not staying even either. The most troubling thing about this war is the death of our brave troops. It breaks Bush's heart to think about families who have lost sons and\or daughters, and anyone who believes that will believe Tiger Woods drives a Buick. His biggest mistake: This one time he thought he was wrong, but he turned out to be right.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21714Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:20:13 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21714TEC, Spring TxRyan, the main issue is are we going to keep up the current plan of stay the course and leave the mess for the next president or implement a plan that will actually succeed. In the long run we can spend more money and cost more lives, only to end up with the same results. The current situation is that the insurgents are willing to wait us out, if it takes two years or ten years for us to pull out of Iraq. Unless we have a plan of attack that effectively confronts the sectarian militia and the foreign intruders, then we will never stabilize Iraq. The ultimate goal for the insurgents is domination, be it Sunni, Shia or Kurd. The Kurds would probably be content with the land they currently occupy, but the Sunnis would not and the Shiites want to pay back the Sunnis. I see this ending like Vietnam. After many years we tried to stabilize the South and finally pulled out and took as many Vietnamese people with us as we could. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21715Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:20:44 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21715Nick, OhioMark, the only thing that can save us now is to impeach George W. Bush ASAP. He is completely insane in his meglomaniac approach to foreign affairs. He cannot admit defeat or that he's made a mistake. To do so would admit that he's fallible and he's all but said that he's the most religious of men. With that kind of religious furvor, we are in a spot where only one avenue is left to us: impeachment. He won't listen to the American people, not even to his own generals. What has this man been been popping? Where has he been living?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21718Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:23:11 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21718Ryan, MichiganSeattle Sue - That's about what I was expecting. Thanks for not disapointing. I'm sure there will be more to come. Lynette - Thanks for coming back with actual constructive dialouge. I realize that in some parts of Iraq there is chaos but is that really how you define losing or lost? Because some wealthy Iraqis have moved to Jordan or here does that mean they won't go back when things have improved? Also there is a new class of wealthy Iraqis that have been prospering because of the lifting of sanctions and a much more free economic system. I understand that many have issues about how and why the war was started in the first place. That is a good discussion to have but I believe it is not relevant to the question of are we losing or have we already lost. Nick - I wonder why you think that if you are a Christian you must be a pacifist. Please explain your theory.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21720Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:32:45 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21720Desmond"Beware the military industrial complex." quote from President Dwight D. Eisenhower, Republican, in the 1950's. He was also a 4 star General in command during WW!!. What part of this statement would our President be ignoring? I think all of it.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21721Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:34:25 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21721Owen Vander, Evansville, INRyan, By what measure is Iraq's economy getting stronger? Their oil shipments are below pre-war levels, most of the country has less electrical service than pre-U.S. invasion, the intelligensia is leaving the country in droves and many parts of the country still do not have access to potable water. The new and rebuilt infrastructure is sabotaged and blown up faster than it is put on line. Their economy will grow 5 times faster than ours next year-according to whom??? The Kurdish section is doing relatively well, however, they were in good shape from the start. Many of us remember the 'spin' from the government during the Vietnam War, we have been down this road before. Our current leadership has proven to be less than honest. (a lying bunch of criminals is my real definition) There is very little, if any, confidence in our leadership, only cynicism and criticism are left. As for evidence of losing or having lost, one just needs to listen to the experts and what they are saying. Colin Powell, The Joint Chiefs of Staff, Iraq Study Group, and academians have all expressed the lost or losing opinions. Who with any credibility is expressing we are winning? Has any qualified expert objectively analyzed the situation without regard to political or philosophical ramifications and come to the conclusion we are winning?? Something my father told me years ago regarding the Vietnam War "It is impossible to win a war when you are fighting the majority of the people of a whole country. You can not impose freedom on a people. By the very act of imposing, you have taken away their freedom." We are fighting the majority in Iraq. We can not win militarily without winning the political battle. In my opinion, our chance at winning politically has past. (The election is now a non-factor, it was too long ago, enough time has past for the Iraqi people to lose confidence in their elected government. It is now irrelevant, considered an agent of the U.S.) Oh, you are correct about something in your blog : you will be flayed and fileted by others on this blog.***At least you knew what you were getting into as you typed your opinion this morning:-) http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21722Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:35:36 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21722DesmondThe President should not be going to Crawford for Christmas. He should be staying in the White House and tell us that we are involved in a conflict in Iraq that requires us to sacrifice. He should be telling us to keep our money spending on those credit cards and partying down. If he showed us some sacrifice on his part, we would have a leader we could take a ue from, instead of a leader that is clueless.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21724Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:43:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21724Ryan, MichiganNick - First, there are ebbs and flows in all major conflicts. Times when it may appear like one side is "winning" and times when it may appear like the other side is "winning". I was merely asking what makes everyone so sure that we are losing or have lost. There is order in parts of Iraq. To make a blanket statement like that is silly. Some rather large portions of Iraq (i.e. Kurdish north) are seemingly in relatively good order. At this point some people are definitley suffering more now then under Saddam, mainly those that benefited from his tyrannical regime. However there are many people (I don't have a number or percent) that I would dare to bet would say that they have more or at least the opportunity for more now then they did under Saddam. Establishing a free-market economy from a sanctioned, closed-market economy will take years. Eastern Europe is just in the past couple of years gaining their footing after shedding the weight of the Soviet Union. Iraq is definitley starting to use its oil for its own benefit, and expects to have revenues of $41 billion next year just from oil. As for your other security related question my answer is that sure, in parts of Iraq its not a good situation and security needs to improve. Iraqis need to start policing and securing their own country. However there are parts of Iraq that are much better off then before Saddam. In answer to your question of how do we know when we've won? The answer is is when we have been able to transfer the security duties to the Iraqi military and police force and helped foster the Iraqi economy to a state where it can be self-sufficient. This may take some time. As I said earlier, mistakes were made that I believe have extended the conflict but I don't think that we are necessarily losing at this point and I definitley don't think that we have lost. From the beginning of the War on Terror I told myself that this was going to be the new Cold War and expect a 40-50 year timeframe. I still consider that the case today.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21725Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:46:28 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21725Lee in CA"Bush also will discuss the economy and his "commitment" to work in a bipartisan way with the new Congress." See, Ryan - even this boob of Biblical proportions can sometimes comprend the glimmer of truth. Even Uncurious George comprehends that he can no longer run rough shod ove rthe Constitution. But you stilll don't "understand." You're not so much a right-winger as an uninformed cheerleader who refuses to "understand."http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21726Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:00:59 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21726Lynette, NYC Ryan I do not think we lost or are are losing. I cannot see the big picture of what it is we are trying to win? I have never gotten that. I live in NYC and was gung ho to go out and get Bin LAden. I for one did not expect our president to use that event as a catalyst for starting an upheaval in the entire middle east, (as if they needed our help over there)and go after personal vendettas. The Initial picture has been lost and its time to concede what ever it is we went there to do. Its more embarrassing to stay at this point...... http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21727Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:01:45 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21727Gary SchearWe are at war folks and fearless leader has given us our marching orders for the home front...Go Shopping! He actually said it again! Please, somebody give this clueless disgrace a hummer so we can impeach him!http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21729Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:09:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21729Seattle SueRyan, please tell me where you get your information about all the wonderful good things happening in Iraq.I watch CNN, CNN Headlins News, MSNBC, CBS, ABC,NBC and FOX News.I just don't see all these good things that you do. Even our dimwitted president or his lovely wife can't show me anything good going on in Iraq. I'm sure if there was some good, Fox would be showing it 24/7.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21730Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:10:44 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21730Ryan, MichiganTEC - I do agree with you that we need a new plan going forward. I also would say that we needed that new plan probably a year ago or more. It seems like there is some news today of a new Sunni, Shiite, and Kurd alliance forming that is opposed to al Sadr, and supported by the U.S. Hopefully this is true and the start of an improving political situation. I am cautiously optomistic that militarily and politicaly speaking we can avoid another Vietnam. Owen - Assuming that no one on this blog will accept any news from "right-wing" news sources I will cite the new Newsweek article here http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16241340/site/newsweek/ as at least some proof that Iraq's economy is improving. Again this is just the beginning and it might not be much but it is baby steps. Now, of course like everyone, I wish we could've started these steps 12-18 months ago but for this discussion that's mute. I would argue that we are not fighting a majority in Iraq. Most estimates suggest that there might be 100,000 insurgents in Iraq or about 0.4% of the population. Many of those insurgents, usually cited between 40-60%, aren't even Iraqi and are from Saudi Arabia, Iran, or Syria. Sure, the Iraqis want us gone, I want us to move out of there too, but according to some recent polls 55-70% of them want us to stay to help stabalize the situation, which is what I am for as well. Owen, thanks for not lighting me on fire:) and keeping the jabs to a minimum. Also thanks for having good discussion points.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21731Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:13:26 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21731The Edge, Macon GARyan, Reality is not so scary, you should try a bit of it sometime....if you like it maybe you can tell our prez about it? he could use some too...http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21732Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:25:43 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21732Amy B MaineRyan, I have no military cred whatsoever, but I do believe one knows one is "winning" a war when one can hold on to one's territory. It sounds like, when our guys leave an area they have "won," the insurgents move back in, torture and kill the Iraqis who cooperated with the US, and then impose their own order. I do believe that is what the generals mean by "not winning, not losing." When our troops are present they can subdue the insurgents, but then, when we leave, the insurgents rebound. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21735Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:45:34 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21735Ryan, MichiganLee - I'm not sure what you are referencing? What does "Even Uncurious George comprehends that he can no longer run rough shod ove rthe Constitution." have to do with Bush saying "discuss the economy and his "commitment" to work in a bipartisan way with the new Congress."? Lynette - This is the point where the true differences of opinion lie. It sounds like, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you believe that if we would've anihalated (major sp?) the Taliban in Afghanistan and killed all the top leader of al Queda including OBL then that would've solved our terrorism problem. While I do think that that would have an effect and already has had an effect on our terrorism problem, I believe that is only part of the solution. I believe that we can't just handle this like a "police action" where we "round up" the known perpatratures and then we're done. I believe that this is a war of ideology, similar to the cold war, and that we need to be fighting it in many different ways in many different areas of the world. Some places we are "fighting" with our military, other places we are still using diplomatic effots, others still we are trying to curb the financial support of these organizations. Now as to argue whether Iraq was the best place to go into militarily after Afghanistan that may be discussed now that we know that some of the intelligence was bad but I still believe that the world WILL be a better place without Saddam in charge of Iraq and also believe that without Saddam in charge we as a nation are safer then with him in charge.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21736Wed, 20 Dec 2006 17:46:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21736Lynette, NYC Gary funny in times of emergency/crisis we are often told to go shopping. Rudy Giuliani told New Yorkers the same exact thing two Saturday's after 9/11. As if we were told ok people you have been given a sufficient amount of time to grieve and adjust to your new lives.. now prove we have beat those terrorists and SHOP.. Nuts then Nuts now...http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21739Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:01:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21739bobf Ryan, why does a christian have to embrace war and death. I thought Christ was all about love and tolerance. Most people , including me ,think that Christ was all about loving thy neighbor and turning the other cheek. Obviously you think of Christ as a warmongerer and love to see people die. Christians beleive in the sanctity of life. Why do you preach death and destruction of human life. Ryan I am only calling out christians like Bush that think war, destruction, and loss of life as the only way to solve problems. I think Jesus would attempt to talk to all parties involved before invading. It boggles my mind when I see christians so fervently back the war in Iraq where thousands of people have been killed on both sides. What is christian about war. War to me is the anti-christ way of solving problems. You have to ask yourself one question, Would Jesus have invaded Iraq with the information we know. Answer this question as a christian and not a neocon politician. A neocon can not be a christian. Christians are suppose to preach tolerance, love, and do unto others. Neocons preach they have a right to force democracy and religion on other people whether it is right or not. Neocons think they are right and everyone else is wrong. They beleive if you are not with them then you are against them. Does any of this sound christian. So Ryan to answer your question yes christians should be pacifists until provoked into a war against our better judgement. Christians do not go out and start a war to push their religious and political beliefs on other people. This was a war of choice. This was never a war of need. Iraq was never a threat to us since the 1991 Gulf War. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21740Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:06:05 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21740Robert Catalano, Salem, ORRyan, we lost the War in Iraq the minute we invaded it. It may be a stalemate militarily, and there may be a chance to reach a political compromise between the factions in Iraq, however, as far as the world, goes, we have lost. When George Bush took office, the Middle East was fairly stable. Israel and the Palestinians were talking, Lebanon was enjoying a relatively peacefule existance and even if Saddam Hussein was rattling his sabre, he was powerless to attack anybody. Iran was relatively contained and the Taliban had nearly wiped out the opium poppy crop in Afghanistan. Six years later, not only are the Israelis fighting the Palestinians, they are fighting the Lebanese. The Palestinians are fighting amongst each other. There is civil war in Iraq. Iran and North Korea are developing Nuclear weapons. Heroin, from Afghani poppies, is being imported into the US at a higher volume than ever. Outside of the Middle East, we have lost respect from nearly ever other country in the world. Italian and German prosecuters are after members of the CIA for their arrogant and illegal actions on foreign soil. I have a friend who just came back from South America where he was working for Agricultural interests and he told me most of the people he spoke to are afraid George Bush is trying to usher in another era of Yanqui Imperalism. He further states most of them are afraid this is what is fueling the dramatic shift to the left in Latin America. The only people who have gained from this failed war are Halliburton and other military contractors, Iran and North Korea, militant Islamic Fundamentalism and anti-American leaders throughout the world. We, as Americans, have lost thousands of our young men and women, hundreds of billions of our hard earned dollars, and the respect and friendship of most of the world. De Gaulle once said when he was asked if he needed confirmation of nuclear missles in Cuba said, "If the President of the United States says missles are there, than they must be there." Those days are gone. George Bush has shot our credibility and will make it much more difficult for world leaders to totally trust us again. Yes, Ryan, we are losing. The trouble is Iraq is not the only theatre where ground has been lost.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21741Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:07:50 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21741Amy B ME. "I wonder why you think that if you are a Christian you must be a pacifist. Please explain your theory." Er, "Thou shalt not kill" ? "Blessed are the peacemakers" ? "Turn the other cheek?" http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21744Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:28:48 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21744Brian, Cedar Hill, TXNOW it's the "Ideology of Liberty" vs the "Ideology of Hate". Why don't they just entitle it the "TBA" (to be announced) War so that some historians in the distant future can finally determine what this horrific melee is that the Liar-in-Chief created.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21745Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:30:37 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21745Brian, Cedar Hill, TXThe Liar-in_Chief vows that America will not walk out on the Iraqis. He's damned close to America walking out on him.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21746Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:31:32 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21746mikeeg,abdn,waryan how many american military died yesterday so that you can spew your propaganda?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21749Wed, 20 Dec 2006 18:37:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21749Sacramento, CARyan, From the information I've read, the majority of the violence is sectarian violence, and the minority of violence is being done by insurgents. How can the Iraqi's start to take care of their own security if they can't or won't keep people loyal to militias or other entities out of the police and army? I agree, if I saw a real chance of change in Iraq I would embrace it. After four years though, only 3 of 18 provinces have been "turned over" to the Iraqi's, while still being helped by US forces and logistics. The latest information I have is that no Iraqi battalions can stand totally on their own. Is that still true? We've been there four years and the security situation has deteriorated. Four years and electricity, sewage, etc. is no better. Four years and the public is now being told that some of the companies paid millions or billions for reconstruction have done such a shoddy job, that buildings are falling down around people, including new police training buildings. Remember that Iraqi oil revenues were supposed to pay for the bulk of reconstruction? What happened? I'm sorry but after four years I don't see much in the way of progress. In my book, not making things worse is not an accomplishment. How many more thousands of US military personnel (including my own loved one)may die in Bush's war of choice? How much time do we give them, five years, ten? With no signs of serious progress (that don't reverse in a few months time)? http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21751Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:10:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21751Lynette, NYC Ryan our terrorism problem will never go away. I was gung ho on getting rid of Osama Bin Laden because I was born and bred in New York and I was furious. We have many enemies and we cant go around trouncing on every country because in the end we are THE USA and thats enough said, don't u think. To get back to the original point of the conversation, George Bush is clueless and lost and is not listening to the people of this country. The majority, not by much but the majority of people in this country do not agree with the Iraq situation and that was evidenced in the recent election. At this point something has to be done and he should go with what the people want not by what he wants to do.....http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21752Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:26:31 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21752DesmondRyan, I saw a story about a month ago on the multimillion dollar hospital, which we funded, and Laura bush touted as being the epitome of what we are going to do in Iraq. that hospital is not done and does not have functioning toilets. We gave the Iraqis our money to build it. A lot of our money has turned up missing there. Bremer handed out cash like it was candy and held no one respossible. From a purely economic stand point, the American people have lost a lot of money there. Would be ironic if in the end, all that oil they have ends up under a Shiite Islamic government like Iran. Our price of oil will go up. Squeeze the beast. I would guess if you asked the Iraqis if 4,000 dead a month constituted winning or losing, they would say we failed to provide them with basic security, so the people and the U.S> has lost. Otherwise we would not be advocating more troops. the mission would be accomplished.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21753Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:27:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21753JJ in NJI hope everyone who voted for this sociopathic madman is enjoying the beer they wanted to have with him.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21755Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:29:51 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21755Lee in CABecause, Ryan, he wasn't too damned concerned about being "bipartisan" when the GOP held all the cards, and please stop being obtuse on purpose. What part of "run rough shod over the Constitution" were you "unaware" of? "Protection from unreasonable and warrantless searches." "Habeas corpus"? How did that little monkey get control of that? "Due process"? Jose Padilla. It's been reported that he's yelled at people for constantly bringing up "that damned piece of paper" when he wants to subvert your rights - lost on you, I guess. Ryan, you seem to have a LOT of time to patiently, consistently and repeatable articulate every point that Karl Rove would. In short, I think you work for them.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21758Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:49:32 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21758J. Merle Stanley, Westchester, NYSo, I see where "The Decider" decided we aren't winning in Iraq and announced it at his press conference earlier today. NEWSFLASH: Anybody who lisens to radio or watches TV, or anyone who reads the newspapers could have told you that 6 months ago. Geeze! Is this guy for real or what?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21759Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:49:42 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21759Edison Montgomery. Pittsburgh, PATo those who advocate impeachment and expulsion of Bush: Don't wish it; you might get your wish, and then the Honorable Richard Cheney becomes President of the United States.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21761Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:55:01 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21761Ryan, Michiganbobf - I don't believe that Christians have to embrace war and death. On the contrary I would much rather have peace and life. However, I do believe that war is necessary at points. Despite your claims that I view Christ as a warmongerer and that I love to see people die, that is shockingly not true. I'm guessing that you are trying to be inflamatory but lets at least not attribute things to people that have never said or implied such things before. I have no idea if Jesus would've invaded Iraq. Honestly I believe that if Jesus passed judgement on the world today billions of people would die, but that is probably a better discussion in a religion or philosophy blog. You say that Christians are supposed to "preach tolerance, love, and do unto others.", and you are right, to an extent. Tolerance meaning loving the person not the sin. Love is not always nice and cuddly. When you discipline a child, you should be doing that out of love with the hope that the child learns and hence becomes a better person. Discipline is not fun or easy but it can be love. Actually, yes, some of your statements do sound Christian. Christians should believe that there is a right and a wrong. Now sometimes its not always clear what that right or wrong answer is and it may not become clear until years after the fact but there is a right and a wrong. I agree with you in your statement of "...christians should be pacifists until provoked into a war...". I would argue that we were provoked into the current war several times during the nineties and most dramatically on 9/11. Also given your definition we should not have been involved in the Revolutionary War, World War I, Korea, obviously Vietnam, and even the war you cite the Persian Gulf War. Iraq didn't attack us they just attacked Kuwait. I agree with you when you say "Christians do not go out and start a war to push their religious and political beliefs on other people". I don't think that we should start wars to push our beliefs on other people. I think that we should defend freedom but that leads us away from a religous discussion and into a what "rights" do humans have discussion. Now, on to Robert - Isreal and Palestine were talking but that is just a formality nothing will be accomplished there because Isreal keeps giving and Palestinians keep taking. Also, Bush has pushed hard for a Palestinian state. Which, I don't necessarily agree with him on but that is another issue. Saddam had the power to fund terror groups (probably with oil for food scandal money, thanks Kofi!) and was thought to have had WMD's and even if he didn't he was trying to acquire them, which in turn could've been sold to other terror groups for use against Isreal, or other Western coutries, or of course us. Are you saying that the Taliban was good and should've stayed in power because they came close to wiping out the opium trade? If you are you are way more liberal then I previously gave you credit for. The Isrealis were not fighting the Lebaneese they were fighting Hezbollah which is sponsered by Syria and Iran and quite frankly the U.S. should've helped Isreal more if they really wanted to back up there War on Terror talk. I will give you that Iraq is probably in a civil war. As far as Iran developing Nuclear Weapons we gave this one to the EU back in 2002 in the spirit of expanding our diplomatic efforts and building a coalition and they of course appeased Iran and took forever and failed to make good on promises and North Korea has been developing Nuclear Weapons ever since the Clinton administration said "okay you have the technology now can we trust you to not use it?" "Oh, we can, great, we'll follow up with you in say...never and hopefully you won't betray our trust". I'm just saying that not everything was hunky dory before W took office. As far as the middle east being stable, yeah, they were stable in their hatred and contempt for our society and freedoms. Now, obviously errors have been made in regards to the War on Terror but that hardly means we should not be fighting it. Also, what good would it have done Churchill to side with the other European countries that just wanted to appease Hitler? Sure he would've been "popular" with those countries but what good is it to be popular if you're not right. It perplexes me that everyone in the world is so against us and our government yet everyone wants to live here. If our country is run so poorly and we are so disdained throughout the world why is there years long waiting lists in some countries to come to America and why do others not even bother to come here legally? I think that most of it is classic jealousy and the rest of it is just hating whoever is the best.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21762Wed, 20 Dec 2006 19:59:49 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21762Dead Iraqi Children Travel AgencyRyan, Life is wonderful in Iraq. You should go there for vacation.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21764Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:00:43 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21764Mark Thieme, Daly City, CARyan thinks we are winning. So do about 20% of the American public. That is about the same percentage of Americans who believe the Tooth Fairy leaves a quarter under the pillow for every tooth deposited there. Most of them are right. Works for me.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21765Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:01:18 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21765Ryan, MichiganLynette - I think it would be scary if this country was led by whatever popular opinion was at the time. Why should we go with what the people want? Is everybody getting morning updates on the war from generals on the ground, and I'm just missing the conference call? I won't go through the litany of accomplishments and triumphs that would've been lost had the opinion polls of the day been listened too, but I'll throw a couple out there... The earth would still be flat... no Revolution against Britain... slavery would still be practiced... I think you get my point.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21767Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:08:17 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21767The Edge, Macon GAking george doesn't drink beer anymore, he's been blessed, God talks to him......kool aid is his drink of choice-he shares it with all his friends.... http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21768Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:14:43 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21768Nick, OhioRYAN, Christianity is a blanket name for anyone purporting to be a follower of Christ. Christ was a pacifist who turned the other cheek, abhored violence and even sacrificed his life for others. He valued and revered life, and he loved all those around him ("forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"). So, how do you think a war-monger, a violent person can be a follower of Christ? God may forgive us for what we do, but I wouldn't count on that saving my soul after doing whatever I please. In my opinion, Bush is a hypocrit. He has not spoken truthfully and cannot comprehend errors or mistakes on his part (he's mentioned this many times). How you live, how you act, is how you believe, what you believe. I cannot stand the man, but I really don't wish him bodily harm. I cannot condone violence. (I only wish him to be served the justice of impeachment and full Senate conviction as I believe he deserves.) We are supposed to know better and we deserve better. We are the stewards of this world and can't seem to get past the fighting and killing of our fellow humans. DESMOND, you have made an excellent point. That hospital is only a single example of our ineptitude in Iraq. One last point, RYAN... I just don't understand nor comprehend how you and others cannot see the death & destruction in Iraq and the insurrection and then say we have been successful or are winning the war. Bush is more than just a lame duck, he's a duck without the ability to paddle or fly. He's cut his own wings and the web between his feet. 2008 cannot come too soon with a Dem Administration, to offer the world a better alternative to the chaos we've had since 2000.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21770Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:29:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21770Olivia, Peoria, Ill.Desmond--I've an even better idea for Bush this Christmas than staying in the White House. He should visit New Orleans' Lower 9th and celebrate Christmas with people there who are still waiting on rebuilding grants.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21771Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:35:18 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21771Mark Thieme, Daly City, CARyan and Karl keep it simple. Classic contrarian rhetorical mush. "It may look like we are losing, but actually we have metrics which show we are 95% efficient in combat zones." It may look like the plane is heading into the ocean, but our instruments show us that we are flying at optimum speed while we adjust our altitude." "American military cannot lose a war. We just move to a different venue and call it victory." Ryan is the real deal. Really.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21776Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:47:32 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21776Ryan, MichiganLee - Why on earth would you be bipartisan when you have all the cards? I mean I know why from a multicultural all ideas are equal kind of a way but from a political reality perspective why would you waste an opportunity to put through your platform? President Clinton did it in 1992 until HiliaryCare freaked out the nation and we dumped the Dems in 94. But Clinton still managed to push through tax hikes, FMLA, and NAFTA; All were part of his campaign agenda. I know your rights are being infringed on and you can no longer plan to detonate a dirty bomb in Chicago and you can't talk to terrorists overseas, I know its horrible. I of course don't work for Karl even though I have been accused of such multiple times. I wouldn't mind working for the man but as of now I don't and I don't work for any political party or 527. I work for one of those evil corporations that employs people and...wait for it...makes money! My job is outcome based, meaning that I can work when I want and for as long as I want as long as I am getting the projects that need to be done, done. No, I'm not management I have nobody that reports to me and no, I don't make a ton of money and would consider myself part of the vastly oppressed, wished I was living in Africa so my life would be better, quickly vanishing...middle class.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21778Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:50:55 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21778Ryan, MichiganApparently I must've said something un-PC in my long winded post that addressed bobf and Robert's posts. I posted it around 2:55 or so I think, judging by my other post that made it through at 3:01. Anyway, I'm not going to take the time to put together that post again. Needless to say it was a point by point breakdown of most of their posts and it would've just given most of the bloggers here more reason to dislike me so maybe its better that it didn't make it through.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21780Wed, 20 Dec 2006 20:53:47 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21780caroline, miRyan, We should "go with what the people wnat" because this is the USA, A DEMOCRACY!!! not a dictatorship. In a dictatorship, you would be free to spout whatever you wanted as long as it was approved by the government, OH, now I see, you'd LOVE that; it's what you do anyway. Is THAT your point???http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21781Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:02:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21781Ryan, MichiganSorry for my last post. Apparently it got held up and I posted to quickly. Sorry.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21784Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:13:55 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21784Ryan, Michigancaroline - I'm sorry that was not worded properly. What I was trying to say is that our politicians are elected by us and we give them the power to make decisions on our behalf. Now, some of those decisions we might like and others we might not like or see the benefit of. I was trying to say that if we didn't elect representatives and we just took public opinion polls to determine policy and other initiatives our world would be a vastly different place and I would argue, sighting some of my previosly mentioned "subjects" that would've/wouldn't of happened, that it would be for the worse.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21787Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:28:55 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21787Desmondryan, as a decider, I think you beautifully expound the Club for Growth. Larry Kudlow, on CNBC is on the board. Your politics are his politics. he too, touted the economic growth supposedly happening in Irag just last night, (Tuesday, Dec.19th, 2006.)that group has pushed for the ultra-conservative. Based on all you say, how are we suppose to pay for the Iraq war in the good ol' U.S.A.? $170 billion a year and more? How do we get the money out of our pockets? Gotta tall ya, it's not in my pocket. You can't bleed a turnip.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21788Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:30:05 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21788Mark Thieme, Daly City, CARyan has made this a perfect day for blog-watching. The arguments and positions he has articulated here represent something eerily like the real stuff that goes down in the White House (how does he do that?). Only rarely do they bother to actually try to explain their "thinking." I only wish more people could read what Ryan has posted here today. It explains a lot of things.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21789Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:33:29 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21789DesmondRyan, on the way to truth and light, come with me to see my cousin's name on the Vietnam Memorial.Have you been there? Come with me. I know how to search through the book to find my cousin's name. We heard the same idealogy exponded then. We ended up with a Communist Vietnam, that we now trade with. Me, I ended up with a cousin that is still DEAD. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21790Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:45:40 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21790El Perro Loco in FloridaRyan...Here's at least one person on your side. Our government is not run on a day-by-day basis by opinion polls. The only opinion poll that matters is the one that is taken every 2 years in November. That "poll" determines how government is run on a day by day basis. It amazes me how anyone who takes a Republican stance is instantly branded on this blog as an extremist mouthpiece of Karl Rove. I have news for all of you. Congress is not currently 80% Democrat and 20% Republican. It is darn near 50/50. This country has been narrowly divided for a long time between the 2 parties. Blindly labeling someone from the opposing party as an extremist is by definition wrong. How can roughly 1/2 the population be extremist? And before I get torched, yes, I know that Bush's approval ratings are in the 30-40 range at the moment. I'm not saying that 1/2 the people approve of Bush. What I'm saying is that about half the people in this country lean Republican and about half lean Democrat. Just look at the current makeup of government and that's pretty obvious. When you make a point, I've never seen Ryan say, "You're just a mouthpiece for Michael Moore." This works a lot better when you stick to the issues.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21791Wed, 20 Dec 2006 21:53:26 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21791Aimee, Pittsburgh, PARyan, please post when you get to Iraq. You make it sound better than Disneyland!http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21794Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:39:16 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21794Still Crazy After All these YearsEl Perro Locco , I never label anyone blindly, I can see" Whats going on."http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21795Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:40:25 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21795bobf Ryan, you do make some good points, but you are stretching and asuming on some of your points. But what I say about war does apply to the Revolutionary war. England was invading or trying to keep control of the USA. I agree that we should not have gone into the Korean or Vietnam war due to our fear of communism. These 2 wars were not about safety but a Neocon dream of forcing or coercing these countries to accept democracy and not communism. WW1 is a tough one. We were not threatened, but our allies were and asked for our help. I was against the first gulf war for the same reason, but when you have a real coalition of countries all working together for a common cause: Kuwait Freedom & world freedom, I came around to accepting it. But for every sucessfull war there is a Vietnam or Korea where things do not go as planned. That is why I am oppose to any war that does not involve our security. We are the greatest country on earth, we have the biggest military, so no one is really a threat, unless you let them. I served and have a lot of trust in our military to protect us. Do not let the terrorists win by intimidation. The war on terror is not new, we have actually been fighting the war on terror for many years. Terrorism did not just pop up now during Bush, we have been fighting them for as long as I can remember. The only difference now is you have a white house that wants to attack our civil liberties instead of terrorist. Insted of investing time and people into defining and finding terrorist's, we go after the very freedoms that all prior americans have fought for. I am impressed and congatulate you for hanging in there Ryan. You do attempt to respond to all bloggers. I honestly think we are a lot closer than we want to admit. It is sad sometimes when political polarization makes it hard to have an honest discussion. Last thought, the Taliban, who do you think armed the taliban when they were waging their vietnam style war with Russia. We helped to create and arm the taliban until 9-11. Only then did we go after the taliban for giving OBL shelter. I was all for invading Afganistan, but was screaming from the roof tops to not invade Iraq. When debating try to keep from using words like would, should, or could have. These are devicisive words and opinions. Just the facts mam, just the facts. Sgt Friday from Dragnet.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21799Wed, 20 Dec 2006 23:48:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21799DesmondOlivia, our President will not be visiting the Gulf Coast this Christmas, or any time soon in the hereafter. What I have heard is that John Edwards will announce his candidancy for President, in New Orleans on December 28th. Ground zero for the Katrina victims.meanwhile, our President will be on his sprawling ranch, a place only the top 1% can afford to live, and ask the rest of us to put up the money for the Iraq War and the bodies to go with it. I would give the money and lives and be there myself in Afhganistan. bin Laden was our primary goal after Sept 11th. The people who lived in the Gulf Coast should have been our primary goal after Hurricane Katrina, in the United States. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21800Wed, 20 Dec 2006 23:55:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21800DesmondEyan, last post, are you going to meet me at the Vietnam Memorial? Inquiring minds want to know.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21818Thu, 21 Dec 2006 02:04:53 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21818Robert Catalano, Salem, ORRyan, I don't think all of the dead Lebanese would agree that Israel just attacked Hezbollah. Even if Hezbollah fighters had been the only ones killed, they were in Lebanese territory and they won't have to replace all of the bridges, factories, roads and port facilities that Israel destroyed. I am not debating whether or not Israel had the right, I am only saying what they did. Formality or not, Israel and the Palestinian Authority were talking until Hamas won the elections that Ms. Rice and "Duh-bya" pushed for. Part of the credibility gap in the middle east is because we pushed for elections for the Palestinians and the Syrian army-free Lebanese and they didn't turn out the way we wanted so we didn't recognize the winners as legitimate. As far as Iran and North Korea go, do you think they are developing nuclear weapons for no reason at all? North Korea is led by a paranoid leader who thinks everyone is out to get him. Is it your idea to feed his paranoia instead of trying to control his behavior with the drugs of diplomacy? We have troops in Pakistan, Afgahnistan, Iraq and Kuwait. Iran is bounded on three sides by our troops or governments friendly to us. Don't they have the right to protect themselves or are we the only people in the world allowed this luxury? They could never win in a conventional war, nor could they win a nuclear war, however, they could develop their own deterrance. We and the Soviets did it for 50 years and it worked pretty damn well. I think you are a reasonable intelligent person but as a philosopher once said, "intelligence is only valuable when used to question available knowledge." Proselytizing the conservative credo has become a sort of religion to people. It doesn't take brains do spew out the ideas of others; it does to formulate those of your own. I take nothing anyone says to me as gospel unless I investigate it myself, no matter how well it is packaged. Although you articulate your points very well, I've heard it all before.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21821Thu, 21 Dec 2006 02:11:59 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21821Jim Frego, Capt. U.S. Army (ret.), Grants Pass, ORPresident Bush said on Wednesday he was weighing a short-term increase in U.S. troops in Iraq and believed that the United States should expand its Army and Marine Corps in the long term. Now where and from whom did he get these recommendations for IRAQ? Laura? The TOOTH FAIRY? He did not get them from Colin Powell, The Iraq Study Group, Bob Gates, The Joint Chiefs, Rummy or any other prominent source. I GOT IT! He got it from the "SHOOTER", VP CHENEY who is an EXPERT on the Military and execution of gorrilla warfare. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21824Thu, 21 Dec 2006 02:41:42 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21824DesmondRyan, can you meet with me at the Vietnam Memorial in D.C. Yes, or no.Yeah or ney?Simple question. One answer.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21833Thu, 21 Dec 2006 03:57:31 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21833Barbara, Tullahoma, TNThe most horribly frightening thing about George Bush is that he believes he is right. The man is an idiot and he has forgotten who he works for.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21836Thu, 21 Dec 2006 04:05:29 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21836Amy B Portand, MaineRyan, I find your arguments childish at best, more like infuriating, truth be told.You want to believe Big daddy Bush is all powerful and he will somehow MAKE this turn out OK, and God in heaven OKs all the killing and will make sure America triumphs, and in the long run, like 50 years, the invasion of Iraq and Bush's handling of the war will prove to be precsient, yeah, Daddy, make it so. Buddy, take a snort of reality...http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21932Thu, 21 Dec 2006 13:03:25 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21932Ryan, MichiganI just wanted to say "thanks" to everybody that participated in the discussion today. There were many good points brought up and I found it to be very productive. It caused me to take some time and re-examine what I believe and why I believe it and that is what good discussions can do. So, thanks again.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21964Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:13:13 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21964Olivia, Peoria, Ill.Desmond--I did know John Edwards is planning to announce his candidacy in the Lower 9th, but didn't know it would be on the 28th, so thanks for letting me know the date. That's good news. I also think it would be an excellent idea for Barack Obama to throw his hat in the ring in New Orleans--or to at least visit that city, but he needs to do it soon--otherwise, with New Orleans' luck and the media's short attention span, he'll go there when the media has been hit by "Obama fatigue" and moved on. I didn't really think Bush would go to New Orleans--that was just wishful thinking. Bush would only want to go to places where he can have attractive, flattering photo-ops that would make his Administration look good and advance his political objectives such as getting GOP members elected in 2008--and New Orleans' Lower 9th wouldn't be one of them. And Bush, to put it bluntly, doesn't give a damn about Louisiana or about all of her people who lost everything in the storm. In spite of her providing oil and natural gas and giving far more to America than she has taken, Louisiana is just too small, poor, and politically-weak a state to matter much in Bush's scheme of things. Had Prince Jeb's relatively-affluent, populous, politically-powerful fiefdom in Florida instead had one of her major cities hit by Katrina, you can bet King George would have been far more attentive right after it happened. For example, Bush certainly wouldn't have flown off to California to strum his show-biz buddy's guitar and taken over a week just to find the time to fly over and look down on the place. Red tape would have instantly been cut so aid would have reached those who needed it, so they'd be actively in the process of rebuilding. And he'd still be focused on Florida's recovery over a year after the storm. But since it was Louisiana, regarding which he has been far less generous--I've the impression that Bush is acting like the passive-aggressive, neglectful/abusive husband of a seriously-injured woman who's in a lot of pain. He has sweet-talked Louisiana--saying that America would "do what it takes" and "stay as long as it takes" to bring New Orleans back, and that he wants a "Louisiana that's vibrant," and in effect that he's always had a soft spot in his heart for Louisiana. But his inaction has spoken louder than words. He has thrown her crumbs without doing anything meaningful that would help her recover. As a consequence, Louisiana is being allowed to slide down the tubes and beautiful, historic New Orleans is slowly dying. There have been some small signs of progress such as the re-opening of the popular St. Charles streetcar line, and a small amount of rebuilding has been going on. But over 88,000 people have been waiting on rebuilding grants and there has been a "brain drain" of young professionals from the city due to lack of business. When Bush did make his rare visits to New Orleans, he stuck to a carefully-managed itinerary of areas including the French Quarter which are on higher ground and came through Katrina relatively unscathed, or, as New Orleanians like to call them, "The Isle of Denial." For had he travelled outside this area, he would have seen a city in worse condition than Baghdad. So Bush stayed in the "Isle of Denial" for a reason--so only pretty pictures would be shown of his trips to New Orleans to support the Bush Administrations' Big Lie by fooling the American public into thinking New Orleans was back to normal when actually nothing is further from the truth. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21971Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:29:27 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21971Ryan, MichiganDesmond - If I go to Washington D.C. I would love to meet you at the Vietnam Memorial. I have always wanted to go but haven't really had the time or money to do it. When they are older I would love to take my kids. So, the answer is, yes, when I go to D.C. I would love to meet you there.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21977Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:39:44 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21977Robert Catalano, Salem, ORRyan, opinions and beliefs are very different. Opinions should change every time new information which becomes available indicates a change is necessary. Beliefs, however, take some time to change because they are the core of who we are as human beings. I have been a skeptic from the moment I saw my grandmother wrapping a present and putting it under the Christmas tree with a "From Santa" label. My skepticism comes from my heart and my life experience has told me when I don't listen to my heart and my head in unison, I get in trouble. I went into the Army against my heart's advice and wound up in Vietnam; I went against my head's advice and wound up married to the wrong woman. What I am trying to say is words are just words; anyone can say them. When you speak from your head and your heart at the same time and the words that come out are yours, to me, that is an opinion based on a belief and not an exercise in dogmatic certainty. I hope you have a Merry Christmas and the New Year brings you happiness.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21979Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:42:51 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21979Owen Vander, Evansville, INRyan..Thanks for hanging in there and keeping the discussion going. It was an interesting excerise. I may not often agree with you, but I would fight for your right to express your views. I am sure most, if not all, who participated in this discourse would do the same. I hope you have realized many of the bloggers here are Ind not Dem or Rep, the caustic/sarcastic comments of the Inds are evidence of just how far off the path our leadership has fallen. It cracks me up when those who are more left OR more right of the center call an Ind a conservative or liberal, when in fact they are probably a bit of both and a whole lot of neither! Beware of swallowing all of anyones agenda, it'll poison you. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21981Thu, 21 Dec 2006 15:43:51 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21981Ryan, MichiganAmy - I'm sorry that you find my arguments childish and infuriating. I don't consider my arguments childish but I can see how they would be infuriating to someone with your viewpoint. Just as I sometimes find posts on here rather infuriating. That is the joy of thoughtful discussion. I hope that you were infuriated enough to look into the arugment more to drum up more information to sput the debate. That is what good debate is. Contrary to your supposition that I "believe Big daddy Bush is all powerful and he will somehow MAKE this turn out OK, and God in heaven OKs all the killing and will make sure America triumphs, and in the long run, like 50 years, the invasion of Iraq and Bush's handling of the war will prove to be precsient", I don't believe Pres. Bush is all powerful. Also, I think that he can have a great influence as to how this turns out but he, by far, is not the only influence. I don't know whether "God in heaven OKs all the killing and will make sure America triumphs". I hope that America and freedom triumph but there is no guaruntee. I also hope that in 50 years we can look back, like we have been able to do with Japan and Europe, and say it was the right thing to do to defend freedom and to help cultivate a new freedom in the Middle East that had previously not been experienced by many. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21985Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:05:29 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21985Ryan, MichiganRobert - Well put. I must say I agree with everything you posted. Your little story about your grandma made me chuckle. I, too, wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21991Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:11:16 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21991Robert Catalano, Salem, OROwen, I agree. I have been an Independent for years in my thinking and voting but, now, I remain so only in my thinking. Hopefully, the Republican Party can regain the wisdom it has lost over the past six years and I can once again vote for one of their viable candidates. I really dislike political correctness as well as right-wing religious fundamentalism. They both require the certainty of knowing there are absolute truths and I don't believe there are. Any person with half a brain can believe in a dogma. Intelligence is being able to see both sides and come up with your own opinion. Blind obedience IS the poison you speak of.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#21992Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:13:05 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:21992mikeeg,abdn,wagood talks folks as always i enjoyed it. ryan just so ya know im a ex-marine and viet vet an while i wholeheartedly disagree with your politics i respect your right to your opinion. if there were a political party that catered to the center i would hope on in a nanosecond as any radical is just that radical(defined as that which hurts the most people while doing the least amount of good) and is rarely of any use other than as a learning experience on what not to do. happy winter solstice.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22006Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:34:08 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22006Ryan, MichiganMikeeg - Well thanks Mike. Thank you for serving our country and defending freedom. Have a great Christmas and a happy New Year!http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22016Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:51:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22016Amy B Portland, MEYou know what? I don't have any family currently serving in the military, I live in a safe and secure place, I have good health and a satisfying life, why do I bother careing about politics? I'm done with getting angry, it does absolutely no good, I'll let you guys continue your discussions without me...have fun.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22023Thu, 21 Dec 2006 16:59:51 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22023Jim, Santa CruzWinning or losing is the wrong way to look at the Iraq war. These words imply that a loser will capitulate to their adversary once they have been beaten so badly that they can no longer go on. In this case there are multiple adversaries, of which we are one. Defining victory or defeat is difficult. What we can discuss however is how GWB and his staff convolved the war on terror with the invasion of Iraq and utilized the public's 9/11 driven sympathy into acceptance on blind faith of what were actually lies about the miltary status of Iraq. For then placing our citizens in harm's way based on these lies, GWB can be impeached, as well as Cheney and others - this I believe is constitutionally valid - please correct me if I am wrong. The problem however is that it would be far better if W would simply acquiesce to the current public preference for a logical and sane end to the Iraq war, and to try to begin to solve the entire middle east problem as well. But W seems to be raising the stakes (after all he has nothing to lose politically); he wants to escalate the violence against whom is not clear and to employ more of our troops as policeman, a job they are not designed to do. It may be then that we are on a collision course with a general impeachment of the upper echelons of this administration. No American in his or her right mind sides with Bin Laden and other terrorists but we as a free and responsible nation can not let a rogue president put the world in further peril by embarking on a misguided military action. I truly hope our president sees the light and does the right thing.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22036Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:28:10 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22036Steve Turner Cedar Falls Iowa"...Pass the Lord and Praise the Ammunition!"http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22049Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:47:10 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22049Lee in CAHey - Apologists - THE POINT IS...GWB started a disasterous war that has done nothing but 1) drain resources 2) weakened the Constitution for questionable reasons 3) divided the country 4) increased the threat of terrorism while ignoring home safety. That's the point - that and Bush can't seem to assimilate a fact, which is also what you have to be like in order to support that national disgrace. Then some moron who calls himself a red white and blue patriot says some damnable thing like: "I don't care about your civil rights" - you people are the Bush faithful and you're all un American at best, psychotic at worse. Bye Amy - I'm having a great time pointing out why some so-called patriots are really fascist shills.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22058Thu, 21 Dec 2006 17:59:17 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22058bobf Amy, i know how you feel. I to was getting frustrated with politics. It can definetely get a person worked up. But hang in there. It does not matter where you come from, you have a right to your opinion. I have learned by posting and reading responses, it makes a person think about who you are and what your positions are. You can not do that if everyone agrees. I have the upmost respect for anyone who posts against the prevailing wind. That is why I keep telling Ryan to hang in there. His reponses creates the most discussion, and he does read and respond. This is what is great with america. Everybody has an opinion, but not everyone has to agree. Back in 2002, I was against the war and when I would post back then I would get hammered like Ryan does today. People had very strong opinions on the Iraq war before it started. I was trying to tell everyone to seperate the Iraq war from the war on terrorism. I got absolutely lit up by some bloggers as unpatriotic or terrorist sympathiser.I stuck to my guns and kept debating and slowly the worm turned. But the end result is now people are wiser and more jaded about what lead up to the Iraq war. Politics can be frustrating, but the public seems to want to debate and discuss issues now. I hated it when it was my way or the highway attitude of the last 6 years. Remember Hitler coined this phrase originally. Have a great day to all bloggers and mikeeg: Semper Fi dude 1978-1982. I used to sit on the edge of the bed as Viet vets would tell us stories of Vietnam while I was in. .http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22062Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:05:17 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22062Owen Vander, Evansville, INRobert, I agree, blind disobedience is poison. How much killing and persecution thoughout human history has been the result of blind obedience? The leaders of these tragedies were successful in convincing their followers by professing to possess the only 'Truth', they were:'Righteous', 'Superior', 'Blessed', 'Destined', ect. There was no gray area, you are either with us or against us. The most of these despots professed to talk to God. (Excl Stalin, et al) They did not make mistakes, any setback - "someone else's fault". They assaulted their 'subjects' rights, changed or made laws to facilitate their reign. Opposition was quashed, dissent eliminated. The use of war to unite and distract the populace was requisite. Slogans proclaiming themselves as liberators, spreading 'freedom' and or 'save souls' were commonly used in their conquests. Surely there are no parallels to recent history?? Just a little something to ponder...... http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22069Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:35:31 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22069David, Katy, TXLoosing in Iraq??? Could someone explain to me exactly what Iraqi Military is driving us out of Iraq? What Iraqi leader is executing large scale military victories against American soldiers? That's right, NONE!!! We are victorious in Iraq, thank God!!! Cleaning up has always been messy, especially with people who are slaves to living in their own mess. Pray that reasonable, just, objective, committed Iraqi men and women stand up for freedom, justice and democracy and defy the evil militant Islamists from Syria and Iran. Pray!http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22070Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:37:06 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22070Donna D., Omaha, NEHey Steve, I have read some of your posts and just wanted to say Hi and that I am originally from Waterloo. Went to Blessed Sacrement (BS:)Castle Hill and then Edison before moving to Omaha in 1976. Being a fellow Iowegian I can totally relate to your comments about Minnesotans, etc. My brother used to live there and he became a traitor when he began telling those lame Iowa jokes. Happy Holidays! GO HUSKERS!!http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22073Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:43:03 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22073Nick, OhioNewsweek has publlished an article (available on the MSNBC website) that basically says the economy is booming in Iraq. Of course, they only mentioned two companies and openly admit that there are major problems with kidnapping, general terrorism/factional warfare and the problem of using US money that's been "stolen". They also mention the underground economy that is allegedly booming. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16241340/site/newsweek/) My answer to this is that the economy is not booming, especially in Baghdad, as there is almost infrastructure that's been successfully rebuilt with or without our money. Sure, we've rebuilt some schools and the like. After 1989, we could have said the same thing about the former USSR, when Russia was seen to be growing substantially. However, they to, had/have a substantial underground, illegal underground economy. Heck, even our own US illegal economy is huge, mostly in the use of illegal drugs, prostitution and anything else that is repulsive to a taxable, free society. So, how much longer do we have to pay (in both US and innocent Iraqi lives), money and respect) for our leader's mistakes and lies in putting the US in that unholy venture? The country will not fall apart with our departure if it truly has a strong, booming economy. Let the Iraqis be self-determinant. One needs to read Thomas L. Friedman's latest "Mideast Rules to Live By" to get a more realistic opinion of what it takes to make Iraq successful. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22075Thu, 21 Dec 2006 18:59:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22075Owen Vander, Evansville, INOOPS!! MY Previous Blog SHOULD say "Robert, I agree, blind OBEDIENCE is poison." .....It says 'disObedience', sorry, brain malfunction....I'll do better the next time..duh! http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22077Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:13:57 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22077David, Katy, TXSorry, I spelled losing incorrectly.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22086Thu, 21 Dec 2006 19:41:14 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22086John Doe"We are victorious in Iraq, thank God!!!" Thank God for a psycho chicken president, because if that's winning I don't want to see losing.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22100Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:08:37 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22100David, Katy, TXJohn Doe - reduced to name-calling? You must not be a conservative.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22106Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:19:01 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22106The Edge, Macon GADavid--John Doe must not be a conservative because he can spell correctly.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22109Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:22:47 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22109Ryan, MichiganDavid - I agree with most of your post. Militarily I find it hard to suggest that we are losing or have already lost in Iraq. We are losing and may have lost in the court of public opinion but you're right in the fact that we aren't suffering large scale military defeats. It is my opinion that unfortunatley Bremer messed things up pretty bad and didn't included certain power brokers in the early stages of forming the government and the disbanding of the old Iraqi army was a definite mistake. Those two things have been the starting points for much of the insurgency that has now turned into the eqivalent of a religious gang war between the Sunni and the Shiite with our troops and the newly trained Iraqi police and military trying to secure the foundations of the weak coalition government. I would say that we have won the war but are losing the peace. If that makes any sense to anybody.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22112Thu, 21 Dec 2006 20:40:45 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22112John Doe"John Doe - reduced to name-calling? You must not be a conservative." Obviously not if I have a reality-based notion of what's going on in Iraq. Besides, Bush called everyone who voted democratic a terrorists supporter, and that senile old drunk is a conservative, isn't he? If the shoe fits...http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22128Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:13:25 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22128David, Katy, TXJohn Doe - "Besides, Bush called everyone who voted democratic a terrorists supporter, and that senile old drunk is a conservative, isn't he?" Produce the quote and its context, then we can discuss.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22129Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:14:25 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22129Jane, Southern MississippiRyan, be sure you're sitting down. I AGREE with you. We should have helped Israel more when they were attacked. Hezbollah just used Lebanon as a launching pad for rockets, and they placed the launchers in civilian areas so that any counterattack by Israel will kill civilians and make them look bad. Hezbollah and other terrorists don't play by the rules of war. They only want to fight against Christians and Jews and bring an end to both, no matter the cost to innocents. Radical Islamists are the cause of the problems we are facing now. They hate us, just because we are not Muslims. We are infidels and should be killed according to their rhetoric. It doesn't matter how we try to appease them and compromise, nothing works. We SHOULD be in a war against them. I just wish we had stayed the course when we were looking for bin Laden, instead of invading Iraq. Now we are stuck there and need to be elsewhere. I guess this story is not the "flavor of the month" anymore, but we shouldn't forget it.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22130Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:17:19 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22130David, Katy, TXEdge - When you make no mistakes, then launch your criticism. Your snobbish elitism is showing.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22141Thu, 21 Dec 2006 21:51:42 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22141JohnDavid, as long as we can agree that he's a senile old drunk, that's good enough for me.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22145Thu, 21 Dec 2006 22:00:29 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22145The one armed man, state of confusion, citizen of contemptAnyone who has studied any US military history knows that what we are doing in Iraq is loosing. We can, and do, bring to bear the most firepower. We can suppress a given small area for as long as we keep troops in position. There is no doubt that there is no power in the world who can stay in the field with us in a face to face battle. That is not what we face in Iraq. The Iraquis learned a great deal from studying our tactics utilized in Viet Nam. Ambush, brief fire fights, disapear. Terrorize the civilian population. Blend in. We evidently did not learn from our mistakes of four decades ago. Most of what I hear on the news sounds sadly familiar to what I listened to as a teenager before my first overseas adventure. After my fun-filled tour of SE Asia came to an early end due to my running into a few pieces of metal "Made in China", I thought that the US would learn it's lesson and never send our kids to fight and die for some other rich kids. But, alas, we wh do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The "Greenzones" sound like a new wave "Firebase". As in VN, we have proven we can whip any organized army in the field. We still can't defeat an enemy who doesn't want to be seen. Maybe it isn't that "we" haven't learned. Most of the military leaders advised against this adventure from the beginning. It seems that our "civiloian" leaders, you, the leaders who never had a shot fired at them in anger and never had to make a life or death decission about themselves other than "do I drive after drinking that much?" These middle-aged guys who now want to play "Army". I have utter contempt for them. I guess the point of this whole thing is, we have not, indeed, lost in Iraq. Nor have we won. The situation is one that is unwinable. The best we can hope for is to get as many of our own kids out as soon as possible.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22206Fri, 22 Dec 2006 02:43:47 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22206Steve Turner Cedar Falls IowaDonna Omaha. I went to Minnesota after the movie "Fargo" came out. Based on an incident that actually happened in the mid-seventies, it was produced by the Cohen Brothers, who also hail from there. By and large the Gophers were in a snit about the protrayal of Minnuh-Sotenz. It was really funny...yah, yah, yah, you Betcha! Yaaaaaah. I have good memories of Nebraska, the Sandhills, the Elkhorn River, the endless Sioux Reservations of the Northern border. A calmer person, the Nebraskan. GOBI GRED. And Waterloo? My step-sister Mary Margaret S. went to St. Mary's and Columbus, Class of 76. Small worlds, eh, Donna?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22217Fri, 22 Dec 2006 05:59:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22217Ken, Seattle WAWhile I agree that there is an absolute need to face and defeat terrorism, I disagree with the over simplified explaination of the root of their hate. It is not as simple as "they hate our freedom", or "they want to kill us because we are not muslum." Sure, some of them may really be brainwashed into thinking that's why they hate us, just the same as Bush uses these statements for propoganda. Their hate has just as much to do with U.S. foreign policey. I'm not going to argue weather or not U.S. foreign policy is fair and good, but this is not as much of a "holy war" as it has been portraid to be by the Bush administration.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22238Fri, 22 Dec 2006 14:07:37 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22238The Edge, Macon GADavid....I'll have to tell all the others at unemployment services I am now to be considered a 'snobbish elite'. You chastised John Doe for "reduced to name-calling?", I guess 'snobbish elite' is just descriptive? Have a merry Christmas anyway. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22259Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:54:19 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22259Seattle SueRyan,Did you catch GWB statement on his news conference about how he was going to work on raising the mimimum wage? But he said he would have to be careful not to upset small bussiness, as they are the ones that created all these new jobs. Is he not saying that most of these new jobs created under his administrion are minimum wage jobs?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22260Fri, 22 Dec 2006 15:56:42 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22260Donna D. OmahaIt sure is a small world Steve T. - The only thing I would change about Nebraska is the ultra conservative nature of the politics here. Being the Independent that I am it's a lonely world in that arena. My hubby is a Repub, but we learned quite a while back not to speak about politics. Maybe that's why I am drawn to blog sites like this? My two oldest sisters went to Columbus, but a few years earlier than yours. I have very good memories of growing up there and defend Waterloo every time I hear people talk smack about it. One other sister still lives there and when I went back there a few years ago, I really didn't recognize it, with the Insterstate taking up a lot of the town now, it was strange and a bit sad. But I will always have good memories, including Cattle Congress and Dr. Max & Mambo ;) http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22263Fri, 22 Dec 2006 16:06:02 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22263Peter, Pittsburgh, PARyan, I don't think you will argue with the fact that the early Christians, up to the time of the Emperor Constantine, were pacifists. They were willing to die rather than defend themselves. Being a Christian was difficult. Since then Christianity, in addition to supporting national violence, has given us the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and while not instigating the Holocaust, most German Christians looked the other way; some still deny that it ever took place. So clearly not all Christians are pacifists nowadays. The question is was Jesus a pacifist? The only act of violence that Jesus engaged in as an adult, to my knowledge, was the incident of the moneychangers in the temple. In this incident nobody was killed or even seriously hurt. Jesus is described as knocking over tables and pushing the moneychangers out. I do not believe Jesus intended to hurt anyone, just get them out of the house of the lord. I base this on the fact that before the incident he gathered rods and bound them together to form a club. He didn't just grab a branch from a tree for his club, although that would have been easier to do. The difference between the two is that the bundle of rods has more give in it. A solid tree branch is far more likely to break bones and kill than the more flexible bundle. Jesus took care to limit collateral damage from the very start. But, more important than that is what Jesus didn't do in the incident. What he didn't do is turn blood into wine. As in the first miracle he could have pickled the moneychangers where they stood if he wanted to. Clearly, he didn't want to. He could also have used this technique to prevent his arrest and crucifixion, but he didn't. Instead, while enduring intense pain, he asked that his tormentors be forgiven. Jesus preached love, peace and forgiveness. He said "turn the other cheek," not "get them over there before they get you over here." Nowhere did he preach violence. You may conclude what you want from the above, but I conclude that Jesus was a pacifist. Thus, good Christians should also be pacifists. Have a happy holiday celebrating his birth! http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22274Fri, 22 Dec 2006 17:02:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22274Ryan, MichiganSeattle - To be honest I'm not sure what he's doing. I'm going to guess that sense raising the minimum wage is such a popular political move, despite the economic reality that it hurts those that it is supposed to help, Bush is going to let the Dems push that through and in return he gets some tax cuts for small businesses. Small businesses have created a lot of new jobs and always have but generally speaking they are not minimum wage jobs. So, to summerize, I think the president is trying to compromise along the same lines that Clinton and the Republican controlled congress did in 1997 when minimum wage was last increased.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22289Fri, 22 Dec 2006 18:38:35 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22289michael, tulsa, okEveryone, I have W as much as the next guy, but impeachment is not the answer. Impeachment is bad for the country. We learned that with Clinton. Impeachment keeps congress from solving the issues that matter. If the Dems had the votes to kick him out I would be all for it, but they don't. When it is all said and done we would have the worst of all worlds. W would still be in office, congress would have wasted its time, the american people would have become more and more divided, and the dems would look as bad as the republics did last time we tried this. And could cost them the congress and the white house in 08. Lets not forget its our own fault that we are in this mess. In 2004 we could ave kicked his but back to TX, but we chose to give him 4 more years, knowing that Iraq was a mess, and he lied to us and is the dumbes president we have had sice hover or grant. We cannot keep looking to the past. We know know that going into Iraq was a mistake but that does not matter now. What matters is what is the best solution to get out of Iraq in a way that we wont have to go back in 20 years from now. The only way to do that is 100,000 more troops. That means the draft, and more support from the UN. Just rember, this may not have been the case if we would have done our job in 04 and kicked him out then. We made our bed, now we have to sleep in ithttp://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22298Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:12:28 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22298Ryan, MichiganWell this may come as an early Christmas present to both of you but after much thought, mainly spurred on by the thoughtful discussion in this blog, I have decided that for the moment I will consider myself undecided as to whether Christians should be pacifists. I have spent much of this day off reading and researching and at this point I have decided that I am undecided. I thought I would pass that along to the rest of you as I thought it would brighten your holidays!http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22301Fri, 22 Dec 2006 19:23:43 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22301Peter, Pittsburgh, PADavid in Katy, I can't believe I'm writing this, but I agree with you that we won the war in Iraq. There hasn't been an Iraqi leader executing large scale military victories against American soldiers since we invaded back in 2003. Even then none executed any military victories, a few fought American soldiers. So, if we won back in 2003 what have we been doing since then with over 100,000 troops? You state that cleaning up has always been messy. Is Iraq cleaner now than it was back in 2003? And, if it is cleaner, how come we now need a "surge?" Could this be a case of we won the war but lost the mess? http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22312Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:06:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22312mikeeg,abdn,waryan your claim that increasing the minimum wage hurts those its supposed to help is in fact wrong but you keep telling it anyway. i have noticed that you parrot bush very well he says hes listening and thinking and you say the same thing. i will bet that when bush decides whatever he decides that you will start parroting that also and as you have stated many times anyone familiar with you knows how you stand on iraq. i have suggeste several times to you that marine and army reruiters are waiting to sign you up yet you have not decided to walk the walk or have you? all your fans are awaiting your answere and if you havent walked the walk and have no intention of walking the walk why not? http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22316Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:23:16 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22316Ken, Seattle WAMichael, just how terrible does a president need to be for you to support impeachment? How many laws can a president walk around? Should we never impeach, because it will divide Americans etc? Impeachment is there for a reason, I say we use it.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22326Fri, 22 Dec 2006 20:56:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22326Ryan, Michiganmikeeg - in a previous post, probably 3-4 weeks ago I stated that I had indeed attempted to sign up for the U.S. Army but was rejected because of a chronic disease that I have called cystic fibrosis. Now, on to your minimum wage comments. First, lets put this into context. A full 1.1% of the working population in America earns minimum wage or about 1.3 million people. 53% of these people or 689,000 are young people under the age of 25 who very rarely are supporting a family. 67% of those people are working part time and their average family income in $64,000 a year. As for the 47% or 611,000 that are older then 25, 56% work at part time jobs, and they have a family income of 33,606 a year (which isn't spectacular but is almost twice the poverty line). 66% are women and only 6.1% are single parents working full time. Also, in both of these catagories 71% get a raise above minimum wage within 6 months of getting their jobs. So if we exclude the middle class teenagers and college students out of this debate we are talking about 611,000 workers. Now lets go to the logic here. Lets say someone is working at Target for 7.50 an hour and has been working there for 2 years. Now the federal government raises minimum wage to 7.50 an hour. There seems to me several logical possibilities. One, that once Target hires a brand new teenager for 7.50 an hour the person with two years experience is going to want a raise and then if Target gives him/her a raise to 8.50 an hour, then the person that has been there for three years and is making 8.50 wants a raise, and on up the chain it goes until Targets margins have been depleted and they are either foced to layoff workers or if they are going to have to pay these higher amounts they will look for more skilled labor. Anyway, I have to be going, but I might blog more on this subject later because it interests me. Have a good holiday if I don't talk to you soon.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22335Fri, 22 Dec 2006 21:55:18 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22335Seattle SueRyan,Michigan-David, Katy, Tx. I think you two will be the last men standing for George W. Bush and his gang. I think the only thing that might change your opinon of him is if George was caught having sex with Condi Rice. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22364Sat, 23 Dec 2006 05:02:41 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22364Ken, Seattle WASeattle Sue, surprisingly, Ryan and David aren't by far the last two standing for Bush. When I want to feel like i'm really smart, I go and read what some of the idiots at foxnews.com are bloging about. Those bloggers really love Bush. They think he is "such a good president". Once I tried to join the conversation and tried to post something that wasn't pro Bush. Guess what, they never posted it! It wasn't even a disrespectfull comment. Maybe I did something wrong. You should go try to convince them to be reasonable. Beware, you might be called a "secular progressive" (another word for open minded person).http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22371Sat, 23 Dec 2006 05:33:28 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22371David, Katy, TXRyan - Jesus a pacifist? Jesus transcends pacifism. Our government, our protectors, under our Constitution do not transcend pacifism. Our government is ordained by God (Romans 13, 1st Peter 2:13) to protect us, to punish evil. Do not confuse the categories. We are to be tender, while government is to punish on earth. God will ultimately judge. Blessings to you and yours.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22374Sat, 23 Dec 2006 05:42:35 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22374David, Katy, TXSeattle Sue - George Bush is not the issue. Where, to whom does your loyalty lie? From where does your hatred for President Bush emanate? Does the evidence truly prove his knowledge and involvement in the attacks on 9/11? Did he truly want to attack Iraq solely for oil money? Might he truly be as powerful / diabolical / stupid, as some want us to belive? Prove these things to me.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22381Sat, 23 Dec 2006 07:45:04 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22381Steve Turner Cedar Falls IowaIsn't Condi dating Fabio? http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22421Sat, 23 Dec 2006 17:16:27 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22421mikeeg,abdn,waryan all you chickenhawks seem to have alleged illnesses and other flimsy excuses for not walking the walk. as to your financial analysis you must either be on drugs or you have never worked as nobody hands out raises according to your scenario so thats just a big no go, so when you want to have a serious dialogue be honest if your gonna talk to me.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22439Sat, 23 Dec 2006 19:36:03 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22439Jane, Southern MississippiRyan, maybe the Christmas bonuses for the bigwigs won't be as big when everyone else gets a well-deserved raise. But in keeping with the spirit, I say, "Bah, Humbug." http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22472Sun, 24 Dec 2006 00:02:20 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22472DesmondThis President can say nothing to convince me his is right. let alone has a GOD on his side. But, he says he sleeps well, and remains cheerful Eggnog, anyone?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22546Sun, 24 Dec 2006 23:58:43 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22546Seattle SueDavid, Katy, Tx. I think you have your head too far up the Bible. Do you really think our government is ordained by God? My loyalty lies with my country. I can't believe a just God would ordain any Bush much less GWB. I think he sold his soul to the devil to become president. No I don't have any proof as to why he took us to war but since the start about every six to eight months he has gave us a different reason for going to war. He did not prove the need to go to war to me before the war started. Yes I believe he is powerful/diabolical/stupid, and oh yes he is a verrry big liar. Please don't ask God to bring his wrath down on me. Have a merry Christmas and Happy New Year.Oh I forgot you can't have a happy new year with all those Ungodly Democrats comming into power. I hope they strip King George of his crown and reams him a new tush.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22667Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:48:36 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22667Ryan, Michiganmikeeg - Sorry I didn't get a chance to finish my post. You make my point. Nobody gives out raises like that so now you will have, in theory, a teenager at his/her first job and a 30 something mom, trying to make ends meet, who's worked there for 2 years, making the same amount of money. I don't think that will happen. Target will be more selective on the people it hires since now it has rising costs involved. Thus they might start looking for previous retail experience (thus ruling out some teenagers) or they might want you to work longer and possibly odd hours (thus ruling out some part-time seeking, second job, mom or dad).http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2006/12/20/21677.aspx#22685Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:49:32 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:22685Michael, Tulsa OKKen in Seattle. If there was even a chance that he could be convicted in the senate, I would be the first to say he needs to go. But the dems only have a 1 vote majority. They need a 2/3 majority to kick dumb dumb and vice dumb dumb out. Right now the dems have control of congress. That means they have the power of the purse. They can and will neuter him. We just finished the worst do-nothing congress in history. Why would we waste more time on impeachment hearings that wont lead to anything. Lets not forget that after the Clinton impeachment, his approval rating rose. DO you want bush to become popular again