The Mormon issue

John B, Des Moines, IA — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 18:51:14 GMT

Funny how the only references to Romney's Mormanism I've heard come from people who are outraged about the supposed discrimination against Romney for his religion. Methinks they doth protest too much. There are more than enough reasons to be against Romney without bringing religion in. Such as the statement he made 3 times in one evening appearance that he believes the President has the right to lock up anyone he pleases, at any time, for any reason. Or his opinion that the President can move money from one budget item to another to fund his own priorities, including the war.

The Mormon issue

MK,MO — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:05:58 GMT

“Voters don’t use movies made in Hollywood to inform their voting choices on issues,” the Romney campaign said in an e-mail. “I don’t expect a movie about something that happened in the late 1800s to have any bearing on people in 2008 voting about national security, the economy and health care.”

that's the first and only statement out of romneys mouth I can agree with, but knowing the mittster I am sure his position will change on this just like every other issue he addresses, I hope he remembered to get the dog off top of the car, what a guy

The Mormon issue

Dave, Tn — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:18:32 GMT

PBS had a special on about the Mormon church a month or so ago. They are the only religion the federal government issued extermination orders on which happened before the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
Bunch of BS has been done in the name of religion. Communism/Socialism has done far more damage. Besides haven't heard of any Mormons killing anyone over cartoon lately.
GoreBull Warming is a religion, an those nuts want to use the force of government against people instead of "converting them" :-)

The Mormon issue

Curtis, Cincinnati, OH — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:32:12 GMT

My problem is that the film is NOT about the religious fanaticism of the time, but rather about a small group of people who acted in a radical and terribly wrong way. There were two sides to what happened: the side that killed and plundered Mormons in Missouri and Illinois and drove them to Utah - and eventually sent federal troops to quell a non-existent uprising, and the side (a local group of Mormons) who reacted to a falsely perceived threat and committed an unspeakable act or savagery - similar to what they themselves has experienced on the receiving end. That is what concerns my Mormon friends.

A balanced account would have put the massacre in its proper historical context. This movie, unfortunately, does not. Michael Medved wrote a truly insightful review for USA Today. It is worth reading.

The Mormon issue

Establishment Clause — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:38:20 GMT

The issue is religious fanaticism, not Mormonism. The Mormons moved west to escape religious fanatics in the east who wanted to massacre them. Those religious fanatics came from Europe to escape religious fanatics there who wanted to massacre them. Who knows, maybe our distant ancestors first came out of Africa to escape religious fanatics. And so it goes without end.

The Mormon issue

Lee Holmes — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:42:10 GMT

''Fanaticism''. Like that being caused by these Mormons,who crash airliners into crowded skyscrapers, wear shoe bombs,behead captives, hide behind children to blast away at Jews and NATO troops, plant IEDs, bomb religious holy places, invoke decrees ordering death to those who dare trifle with their religion, brainwash children into wearing dynamite vests, publish ''Mein Kamph ''as a best seller, engage in honour killings, summarily execute women and homosexuals, and are responsible for the genocidal murders of over 10 million people worldwide in the last four decades. We picked the wrong guys to fight. Mebbe we should have invaded Utah instead of Iraq and Afghanistan, whose religious adherents only ''fanatic''crimes have been to sell 3.2 beer, have young guys on bicycles with white short-sleeved shirts knocking on doors, call gays ''Gods children'',and run the terrific film festivals of SUNDANCE and PARK CITY in their cities of Baghdad and Kandahar......

The Mormon issue

The Evangelical Christians — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:50:20 GMT

Romney is right. This movie will not have an impact on how Americans view Mormons. Nor does it address the reason why polls suggest , Americans are more willing to elect a Female , a Black or a Catholic , before they would elect a Mormon. The real reasons have yet to be answered. They are as follows.

1. POLYGAMY/ INCEST/ CHILD RAPE : Why is Warren Jeffs Cult still thriving and why is the Mormon Church silent on the Rape that occurs when these little nine year old girls are being forced to marry 59 year old "Uncle Jessup"... TODAY! Not in "yesteryear" , but TODAY. Right now this is still happening in THIS Nation.

2. MILKING THE ECONOMY : Why are the Second and Up Wives still allowed to milk the Government by taking free services that are designed to help SINGLE Mothers? WIC , Food Stamps , Money .

3. RACISM : Why is the Mormon aka LDS refusing to deal with questions raised pertaining the Book of Mormon . If they denounce Racism , they should denounce what's written in that Book. No ?

4. CULT : Evangelicals KNOW that the Book of Mormon is a direct contrast to the Holy Bible and no matter how polite and "kind natured" the Mormon Faith appears, they will never vote for a REPUBLICAN Mormon ( because they are more prone to disproportionately mix Faith with Politics than Democrats who are Mormon. See: Harry Reid ) who is viewed as a Cult Member. Even if he calls himself a Christian.

These are the reason why people are not going to elect a Mormon. I have yet to see Romney address these issues specifically. Until he does , the Mormon Issue with him will not go away.

The Mormon issue

BD — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:58:51 GMT

Curtis,

You explaining away this atrocity is tantamount to excusing the enslavement of Africans by English Settlers because the "Poor Religious Settlers" were once mistreated in England. That's why they came to America in the first place. We should tell that story when we talk about Slavery in America for some balance.

So, we should condone evil because those who perpetuated it were once victim's?

I think not.

Try using that logic to condone Slavery of the Africans and see how far you get. BTW. The Mormons didn't come first. The Native Indians did.

The Mormon issue

Utahdevil, Layton, Utah — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:03:10 GMT

The issue of religion an fanaticism is accurate. The fact that Romney is a mormon shouldn't matter to the public. It's not like he is planning to convert everyone in the whitehouse and beyond the borders of our nation; the mormon church is already trying to do that. History is very important. When it comes to mormon history, let's remember the Haun's mill massacre, the ousting of mormons from missouri and illinois - Hell, it wasn't feds, but the governor of Missouri that issued the mormon extermination order...and it didn't get rescinded from the books until 1976!

The Mormon issue

TJA — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:08:25 GMT

I'm begging you people to let go of the 10 year old flip flop thing and his religion and just look at his plan for the future. He's a charasmatic guy with great speaking ability(unlike someone in our current gov)who has some good ideas. The media makes people think too hard about this crap. Just vote for whats best for our great country, end of story.

The Mormon issue

Everett P, Provo, Utah — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:10:28 GMT

Do you really want a guy in the White House who thinks he can become a God?

Wait, we might already have that now. Never mind, now back to our regular programming.

The Mormon issue

Protestant against Mormon — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:15:05 GMT

I've had the unpleasant experience of living in the White Mountains of Arizona among a majority of Mormons. Mormons are not nice people. They absolutely discriminate against people of other faiths. They have non-Mormon people fired from their jobs so they can hire their Mormon friends.

The Mormon issue

tel,Estero, FL — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:20:20 GMT

Anyone who has done serious study regarding Mormon Doctrine and knows their history can look to Webster's for the definition of a "Cult" and surprise--surprise they qualify. When you truly believe such as this you and you are trying to go mainstream you are going to have a very hot kitchen.

The Mormon issue

Agnostic1, boca raton, fl — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:25:01 GMT

All religons are dumb. There have been so many wars and hate based on relious beliefs. If there was no religion just think about how peaceful everything would be. No one would be judged on what or how they believe. I personally think mormanism is the most ridiculous of them all, but if you're mormon I will not judge you based on that I just think how they do things is messed up.

The Mormon issue

JIrby, Colorado — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:25:02 GMT

There's no guarrentee that Jesus will work with the next president like he did with Bush. I think you have to be a really special compassionate conservative to earn that honor. I think a lot of politicians are taking Jesus for granted just because he helped Bush make the Iraq war such a roaring success.

The Mormon issue

Richard Malloy, Idaho Falls, Idaho — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:25:05 GMT

Each religion defines itself by the tenets of its faith. For Mormonism look up "blood atonement" and make up your own mind.

The Mormon issue

Brian, Las Vegas — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:44:53 GMT

Either way, it's not like anyone is really going to go see a film headlined by Jon Voight and Dean "Beefcake" Cain anyway. Why pretend that this has anything to do with a political campaign?

The Mormon issue

jerry/corpus christi texas — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 20:55:22 GMT

Religion....god what a stupid thing to a debate on in politics. I could care less if he worshiped the California three spotted lizard, I don't vote for a man based on his faith.

The Mormon issue

Mitt R. - Venice, CA — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 21:06:38 GMT

I am looking forward to this movie and I have seen several interviews with actor, Jon Voight and his views. Maybe Romney should consider Jon Voight to be on his ticket... he makes more sense than the politicians!

The Mormon issue

Robert Catalano, Salem, OR — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 21:37:45 GMT

Curtis and all of you other Mormon apologists, using past discrimination as a justification for a massacre is along the same lines as the "twin towers" bombers claiming those who worked in the World Trade Center were enemies because they happened to be working for multi-national corporations supporting US foreign policy. It's a ludicrous argument.

The Mormon issue

Paul Miller, Woodbridge, VA — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 23:22:36 GMT

The Mormonism attack plays into Romney's hands. It would be like attacking Obama because he's black or Clinton because she's a she.

The Mormon issue

F StLouis — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 01:13:17 GMT

Christ! Its what I've been saying all along and I got called predjudiced. No way a Mormon is going to get the republican nomination, because they only pretend to be christian, and evangelicals hate Mormons and pretend they don't. And its a stinken cult. Probably the only area in which I agree with freaky evangelicals too.

The Mormon issue

Non evangelical Christian, Evansville, IN — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:00:28 GMT

I am always amazed at the movies and how people react to them. They are supposed to be for entertainment. I find no entertainment in telling a story that happened 150 years ago about a bunch of scared Mormons and now is being told from the perspective of a few discriminating people. I also find it interesting that no other religion in the USA has been attacked like the Mormons.
I find it interesting that the issue of Polygamy has been exaggerated because of a few NON Mormons. And the Mormons are blamed for allowing it when it is Sate and Federal issues. I don’t see anybody going after Muslims in the USA who by religion can have four wives (age 14). And Mitt Romney was successful at turning the Olympics around and from what I can tell did a good job in Massachusetts. Why are we so critical of Mitt for his issue on abortion when the Mayor of New York allowed the catastrophe at the twin towers? Ok I think its all that silly! Oh and what is with the racial discrimination issue with the Mormons when the leaders of the KKK where Baptist ministers, Pentecostal, and other religious leaders but not Mormons.

Bottom line is there is religious discrimination in this country and for some reason we can’t keep it out of politics and Movie entertainment. Vote for a president based on his actions and records (results) and not your opinion of what he may do because of his religion or trivial ethics.

The Mormon issue

Cindy Ellis — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:47:36 GMT

Being Mormon is now an "issue"? How about being a woman running for President - is that an issue? A black man - is that an issue? Seems a little bigoted to me.

The Mormon issue

nuanced — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 13:50:12 GMT

jerry, good comment.
What about belief in the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

The Mormon issue

Chet Cole Barrett, San Diego, California — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 14:24:45 GMT

Why such hate for the Mormons? Haven't we grown as a people to put the bigotry behind us? Come on people!Judge Gov. Romney by his character and his views on the issues like we do any other candidate.

The Mormon issue

J. Butler, Richmond, Virginia — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 14:52:28 GMT

Robert Catalano, I don't think any Mormons are trying to justify Mountain Meadows by citing earlier persecutions against Mormons. But if you want to understand why the massacre took place, you cannot divorce it from the context of Haun's Mill, the Extermination Order, and the forced trek to Utah. "September Dawn" ignores the context of events leading up to Mountain Meadows, and instead portrays Mormons as a vile gang of religious fanatics on par with Islamic fundamentalists. The movie's tagline is that it's about the "first act of religious terror on American soil." It's easy to see why Mormons are offended by the comparision between an isolated act of horrific violence 150 years ago and an ideology that specifically preaches violence against non-believers and is engaged in an active war against the United States. Especially when there are many people, even a few on this thread, who are anxious to place the proverbial sins of the fathers on the heads of modern Mormons.

The Mormon issue

GAB, Austin, TX — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 14:53:37 GMT

There was a special on tv the other night about a group of affluent Mormons in Centennial City, Ariz. It came up that it sayd in the Book or Mormon that blacks are the cursed children of Cain and they said they still believe that and practice that. Guess thats why you never saw a Mormon of color. So would an elected official consciously or subconsciously make policy based on their beliefs?

Non Evangelical Christian said: "Vote for a president based on his actions and records (results) and not your opinion of what he may do because of his religion or trivial ethics."

Yet George W. makes policy based on his religion such as stem cell, faith based programs, abortion, Supreme Court nominees, etc. So why wouldn't people look at that? Its obviously guided his Presidency. Didn't he said God was on our side in going into Iraq?

The Mormon issue

bb — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:00:19 GMT

Its not a religion, its a cult. Go look it up.

The Mormon issue

Class Warrior, D.C. — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:34:38 GMT

I don't care if he believes in the Tooth Fairy, as long as he leaves me alone and stays out of my bedroom. He's a Republican, so I wouldn't vote for him anyway.

The Mormon issue

F StLouis — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:39:14 GMT

OK Chey you're right. We should judge people by their character. Romneys character sucks. Hes a phoney two faced lier AND his supposed religion is a cult.

The Mormon issue

nuanced — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:40:12 GMT

Good points GAB.
If a presidential candidate has irrational beliefs it should raise red flags. If they give any indication they will act on those beliefs run like heck away from them.

The Mormon issue

nuanced — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:47:13 GMT

bb said "Its not a religion, its a cult" ---

I believe that is a distinction without a difference. Every religion has at one time been considered a cult, even Christianity. Once enough believers get in power the cult magically becomes a religion. What is important is whether the candidate believes in the Establishment Clause of the constitution and will respect the separation of church and state. Has anyone asked Romney that important question?

The Mormon issue

jbh, Tahlequah, Oklahoma — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 15:53:32 GMT

Okay its to flat out say it:
Mormons aren't Christian(R)

And just to be safe:
Mormons aren't Christian(TM)

There, satisfied?

Note: Christian is either a registered trademark or a trademark of The Lausanne Committee for World Evangelization in the United States and/or other countries. All rights reserved. Unauthorized use of this trademark without the express written consent of and registered membership in the Lausanne Covenant (www.lausanne.org) is strictly prohibited and may result in severe penalties, and will be persecuted to the maximum extent possible under the law.

The Mormon issue

Robert Catalano, Salem, OR — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:16:53 GMT

"But if you want to understand why the massacre took place, you cannot divorce it from the context of Haun's Mill, the Extermination Order, and the forced trek to Utah. "September Dawn" ignores the context of events leading up to Mountain Meadows, and instead portrays Mormons as a vile gang of religious fanatics on par with Islamic fundamentalists."

Again a ludicrous argument. This would mean that all movies about the "twin towers" would have to incorporate elements of Western, Isreali and religious persecution of radical Muslims to put the whole scene into the proper prospective because those attackers thought they were the victims of such.

This is the bottom line: The Mormons wanted all non-Mormons out of Utah in 1857 and al-Quaida wants all Americans and Jews out of their "holy lands' in 2001. I really fail to see the difference.

Having said this, more people have been killed and tortured in the name of God than for almost any other reason throughout the history of mankind. I think it is important to continually bring this to light so the US never becomes a religious republic. Besides wasn't Jesus called the Prince of Peace and not the Wizard of War.

The Mormon issue

Carl, Utah — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:31:42 GMT

Everyone should have the ability to fully investigate the Mormon church. Congressman Leo Ryan and members of the press were shot and killed when investigating Jim Jones and his religion. It appears as if most Mormons do not want people to investigate the untold history of thier church. I have found that most Mormons are great people, but lack the ability to truly confront the past problems of their church. I have been told that this is a commandment for them to not delve into anything negative for they believe the truth shall not set you free.

The Mormon issue

Joe, Washington — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:53:22 GMT

I think what happened at Mountain Meadows was a result of a combination of earlier persecutions and a statement made by Brigham Young earlier that year on Blood Atonement which claimed that killing some people were essentially doing them a favor. Look it up, a very interesting read.

The Mormon issue

Former Ashlander — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 16:58:33 GMT

Robert Catalano from Salem; greetings from another Oregonian (Originally from Ashland). There's a book you might find valuable:
"Tragedy at Mountain Meadows" to be published by Oxford University Press in a month or two. In it you'll find, perhaps somewhat unexpectedly, that historians conclusions aren't so far from what the people you've labeled "Mormon apologists" are saying: The massacre occured within the broader context of decades of violent oppression towards Mormons, and heightened wartime paranoia by the Mormons over an impending invasion of Utah. The events had much less to do with fanaticism and more to do with the horrors of war. (Similar in some ways, but not completely like, the Mi Lai massacre by U.S troops in Vietnam). Happy reading,

Cheers.

The Mormon issue

Alan, Tacoma, Wash — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 17:37:49 GMT

GAB, I think you're a bit confused. First of all, there is no Centennial City, AZ. You might be thinking of Colorado City, AZ. But there are no Mormons there -- that is a town with polygamists who are strongly opposed to the Mormon church. Their ancestors broke off from the Mormon church a century ago. There are absolutely no polygamists in the Mormon church -- one of the fastest ways to get excommunicated from the Mormon church is to practice polygamy.

The Book of Mormon does not say "blacks are the cursed children of Cain" -- you can look it up. Anyone who says the things you report is clearly not an active Mormon. Furthermore, it's not hard to find "a Mormon of color" -- which you claim doesn't exist. Prominent black Mormons include singer Gladys Knight and former NBA player Thurl Bailey. There are hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions of black Mormons throughout the world. See blacklds.org for more information.

The Mormon issue

Paul Miller, Woodbridge, VA — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 17:39:20 GMT

For what its worth, that Mormon Donny Osmond plays a great Jewish Joseph.

The Mormon issue

Hal, Columbus, OH — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:34:53 GMT

I think the only difference between fundamentalist Mormons and the Mormons was that the fundamentalist were not going to let the federal government tell them they could not marry more than one wife. I have been told that in their scriptures it claims that these two divisions wil again be joined together when polygamy is legalized, possibly by Mitt Romney.

The Mormon issue

Poxy, ID — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:46:24 GMT

Alan, there are polygamists that live in a little town called Centennial Park, Arizona. Perhaps this is the group GAB was referring to. There was a recent segment done on one of the major TV channels which did say they are NOT connected with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints or what most people call Mormons. The segment unfortunately did not spend a huge amount of time making this clarification though. According to what I remeber about the segment they call their church the Work of Christ and do not follow current leaders of the LDS or Mormon Church.

The Mormon issue

GAB, Austin, TX — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:38:23 GMT

Alan, John Quinones showed all of this a few days ago on PrimeTime. Here's the link
http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=2868784&page=1
It's called Centennial Park, AZ, and they did indeed say that the children of Cain were cursed to be black.

How about this, I just googled and came up with many examples of anti black mormon rhetoric:

"Those who were less valiant in pre-existence and who thereby had certain spiritual restrictions impose on them during mortality are known to us as the negroes. Such spirits are sent to earth through the lineage of Cain, the mark put upon him for his rebellion against God, and his murder of Able being a black skin. . . . Noah's son married Egyptus, a descendant of Cain, thus preserving the negro lineage through the flood. . . . the negro are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concern. . . . " (Mormon Doctrine, 527-28; 1966 orig. ed., changed in the current ed.; emphasis added)."

The Mormon issue

GAB, Austin, Tx — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:44:28 GMT

Also Alan, I didn't say there were no black mormons, I said that you never saw any on the show. I assumed they were talking aout the Book of Mormon, perhaps not. I just said what they said ont he show Alan. And they had disdain for the mormons in Colorado City.

The Mormon issue

Carl, Utah — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 19:58:25 GMT

How can you say these two groups are not connected? Sure they parted ways based upon polygamy. There are two major offshoots of Islam so is there with the Mormon church and as Hal mentioned if Polygamy is legalized these two offshoots shall rejoin into one.

The Mormon issue

Newswatcher, Wisconsin — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:22:48 GMT

Poxy,
Yes the polygamists do not follow the current Mormon church, which disavowed polygamy in 1890 when the church President Wilford Woodruff had a revelation from God, who told the Prez polygamy was wrong. Woodruff then issued a manifesto against multiple wives. Unfortunately, ANYONE in the Mormon church can have a revelation, which is why there are dozens of sects, large and small, across the western United States and Canada, headed by these old boys who believe Woodruff was an apostate to the TRUE faith, and continue to matrry multiple women, have sex with underage girls, sometimes even their daughters, if God has told them it's all right. Most believe themselves to be the true head of the Mormon church. They are all excommunicate from the present Church of the LDS. They also consider themselves the real Mormons. Why the authorities within the church and in the towns do little or nothing about this is a matter of speculation, but Jon Krakauer's book, Under the Banner of Heaven provides a chilling look into the underside of this religion. They have allowed ordained bishops of color since 1978.
None of this has to do with Romney, of course. I still believe, however, he is a bobblehead with a time bomb underneath. If you liked W, you'll love Mitt. Just don't expect the country to get any better.

The Mormon issue

Newswatcher, Wisconsin — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:25:54 GMT

The Mormon issue

Robert Catalano, Salem, OR — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:29:32 GMT

Former Ashlander, I am not saying that historical context is not important; I am saying it doesn't justify a massacre. At My Lai, an American helicopter pilot saw what was happening and got between his own troops and more potential victims to stop the slaughter. That was an act of heroism. Attacking innocent people is cowardice, no matter what the situation, no matter how angry you are. Using war as a justification for indicriminate murder is the same thing al-Quaida is doing in Iraq. In a 150 years they may become law abiding and peaceful citizens of the world. Does this mean we would relegate the horror of the "twin towers" massacre to historical context? Again, a ludicrous argument.

The Mormon issue

Justin Morgan — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 20:32:29 GMT

To the person who posted under the name: Evangelical Christians

I think you need to get your facts straight about Mormons. You blur the truth with half-truths or outright lies.

Please do better research than that.