Florida Dems fire back at DNC

jerry/corpus christi texas — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:06:16 GMT

Just the kind of infighting I like to see. The extreme left wing of the party taking on the centralist wing. Hopefully Florida will once again be the downfall of the democratic party.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

HOT DAM — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:24:26 GMT

What was that Monica/jerry the down fall of the repukes, we know about that Honey.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

wayneTx — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:24:49 GMT

Florida is full of left wing bleeding hart libarals. They want the govmnt to respond to there every needs.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Stu, Saginaw, MI — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:34:22 GMT

I've been reading these "Comments" for a long time and must observe that "jerry/corpus christi texas" is both the most partisan idiot and most obnoxious commentator of all those who offer comments. Come on, Jerry, admit you're a uber-conservative, Republican political hack who has no sense of objectivity! A large majority of other commentators have the sense to object to dumb politicians of both parties--can't even imagine you doing that. Dumb!, dumb!, dumb partisan hack!

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Joe, Cincinnati OH — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:41:37 GMT

Leave it up to the backwood conservatives in Texas who support people like President Bush and Alberto Gonzolez to say things about the democrats. Look at what your votes have cost the country!! Deaths, war, national debt....should I keep going

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Shane, Simi Valley, CA — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:42:42 GMT

I almost have to wonder if it's real reading these comments sometimes. The conservatives from Texas, specifically, are always flaunting their ignorance and lack of education with their poor spelling & grammar.
Good times.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

John T. Apperson, Clearwater, Fl. — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:51:54 GMT

*** Know the facts before you respond. The State of Florida is run by a "Republican" Govenor ( Crist) and a "Republican" Legislature. They "changed" the law to move the primary date to January 29th. They knew this would cause a riff in the Democratic Party in Florida, that's why they did it. You should also be aware that they( Republican Party )are trying to change the way the electorial college delegates in California are distributed. Thease are 2 "major" issues that could most definitely effect the outcome of the next Presidential election. Other states who have changed their dates for the primaries, could also cause many problems.On another note the Republican Govenor of Florida(Crist), is rumored to be a Vice Presidential choice on the Republican ticket.***** The media needs to investigate, all this.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

H P Boston — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:52:00 GMT

jerry is our village idiot. Some think he is the junk yard dog, we can not decide as yet.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Tue, 28 Aug 2007 18:55:35 GMT

MARK MURRAY, PLEASE DO MORE INVESTIGATION INTO THE FLORIDA PRIMARY CHANGE OF DATE MADDER. THERE IS MORE TO THIS STORY.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

jerry/corpus christi texas — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:06:13 GMT

I love people from Boston. $14 billion to dig a tunnel that killed a woman and can't get the leaking to stop.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Class Warrior, D.C. — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:25:53 GMT

It's really sad to think the Dems are so self-destructive---they'll regret all this bickering when a shrub clone gets into the White House as Hillary fumes...

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Susan,Miami — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:36:13 GMT

Jerry your a Corpus Christi moron, but youre OUR moron.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Pat, Boston, MA — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:38:46 GMT

jerry, I know. The politicians in this city can make your head spin. Why even Governor Mitt Romney himself, while governor, didn't give a bleep about the Big Dig until a woman's life was taken. Years and years of republican governors running this state has been a real bitch.

Of course Romney's presidential ambitions came first. Everyone knows that.

What the hell is so great about the politicians from your state. Tell us. We'd like to know. Afterall, they've been running our country the last 7 years.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

wayneTx — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:40:11 GMT

Democrates in office will be weak. Our country will become passive and eventually become the only democracy in the world. Taxes will soar. Vote Republican to save America!

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

John Doe, The Peanut Gallery — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:44:27 GMT

Nice to see Jerry "Democrats are always spouting such hatred"/corpus christi texas using the horrific death of an innocent woman to attempt to score cheap political points on a meaningless message board. Way to walk your talk Jerry. You really are the prototypical Republican. Hate filled and hypocritical no matter what the topic...

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Dash, Tampa, FL — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 19:56:13 GMT

Get real people. It's not some Republican conspiracy that FL changed the date of the primary. Yes, it's a R lead state, but look at the vote- nearly unamious. Only 2 state senators voted against it. It's because we're tired of candidates coming down to sunny F-L-A taking all our cash, but not getting a say so in who gets nominated. Before you make some crack about no one in FL has money... we're the 4th largest 'cash-cow' for both parties!
Whether or not your a R or D, doesn't matter. What matters is the D's were, in 2000, saying we "disenfranchised" voters... but what hypocrites... look at what they've just done to FL Dems.
Nice going. Dean just secured another 4 years of a republican in the W.H.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Sara, Cedar Rapids, Iowa — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:20:15 GMT

John T. Apperson: I watched the DNC meeting on C-span, and it was interesting, and it is true that the GOP pushed the date, and there is also an important ballot initiative on that same date that the Democrats want defeated (a tax decrease that would negatively affect teachers), and by having the Presidential primary on the same day, they are increasing turn out. Also, the bill that changed the date had a bone the Florida Democrats wanted. The law to change the date also provided for a paper ballot. Listening to the Florida delegation plead for mercy I was a bit sympathetic. However, when the committee members spoke (after Florida had their say)I learned that many of the statements made by the Florida delegation were false. They claimed that the Florida DNC delegate had objected to sanctions against any state that failed to comply with the prohibition of any primaries prior to 2/5/08. A Florida delegate who wasn't even at the earlier DNC meeting insisted the Florida delegation had objected, and voted no, but it was clear that wasn't true. Also contrary to Florida's claim that the only reason Florida Democrats voted 100% in favor of the change was the paper ballot and need for high turn out on the day of the tax vote, apparently numerous Florida Democrats were supportive of moving the date after the DNC set the schedule, and voted unanimously that any state who moves their primary prior to 2/5/08 will be stripped of delegates, but before the tax issue had been set for 1/29, and before the GOP included the paper ballot in the law, who had publicly supported moving the election to January.

Bottom line is the Florida Democrats voted 100% to move the primary to January 29th. If they had fought it and lost, and if they had been 100% honest at Saturdays DNC meeting I would be relucant to agree with the sanctions. But given 100% of Florida's democrat rep's voted to move the date in violation of DNC rules, with knowledge that this is unfair to most Presidential candidates, and that the DNC has previously sanctioned Washington DC (with Florida's DNC rep's approving the sanction)for violating the agreed to calendar, I can't say I have any sympathy for Florida.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

RH Oregon — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:24:51 GMT

Why can't we have a single nationwide primary, just like the final vote? At least a rotating regional primary system. And no primary voting before March the year of the election.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Shane, Simi Valley, CA — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:33:10 GMT

As a democrat, I'm siding with Florida democrats on this issue AGAINST the DNC. This is great, IMO, that other states are moving their primarys up. It is complete b.s. that i never understood why Iowa & New Hampshire were always allowed to choose first our nominee. Screw tradition. If the DNC seriously doesn't let FL delegates attend the Democratic Convention over this they would be stupid and cause me to reconsider my support for Howard Dean. If the DNC gives FL dems an underserved "FU" such as that, all it will result in is pissing off FL dems in such a way that will likely swing this critical 'Swing-State' into the Republican column next year.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

HOT DAM — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:34:04 GMT

Jerry you brother Wayne from texas is funnier than you are! lol

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Sara, Cedar Rapids, Iowa — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:34:32 GMT

Dash, Tampa, Fl

So nice to know that Florida Democrats are so self centered that they don't care the hardship they place on any candidate other than the wealthiest. Ad time in Florida is outrageous. Florida's DNC representatives agreed to the calendar, and they agreed to the sanctions prior to the date change. That fact alone makes the change of date wrong. Florida, because it is a swing state, unlike California, does get a lot of attention in the general election. Florida could have moved its primary to 2/5/08 and accomplished their goal of getting attention from the primary candidates, and would not be sanctioned. How any one can defend this last minute jockeying, which hurts the chance of any candidate, other than Clinton (which is why her campaign refused to comment on Florida today), is beyond me.

Dean doesn't secure another 4 years of a GOP White House. Florida cost the Democrats the 2000 election, not only because apparently people in Palm Beach County (where my Grandpa was retired) can't figure out a fairly uncomplicated ballot, and 90,000 Floridians voted for Ralph Nader, because they didn't think Al Gore was liberal enough, these idiots actually believed there was no difference between Al Gore and W. While they got what they deserved unfortunately the rest of us had to suffer along with them! If Florida has its primary on 1/29 most likely Hillary will win it, and if that happens it will help her on 2/5/08. A Florida primary on 1/29 almost insures Hillary is the nominee, and if that happens then you are right we will have a GOP for 4 more years, but it won't be Howard Dean, or the DNC's fault(only the Florida delegation voted against sanctions on Saturday), it will once again be the Sunshine state that screwed up again.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Dash, Tampa, FL — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 21:41:05 GMT

Sara,
You're absolutely right. Florida is a swing state. Most analysts across the nation, say "So goes FL, so goes the nation", so wouldn't you want a candidate that a multi-cultural state chooses? Knowing that candidate would have the best chance of beating the republican?
The FL DNC are NOT elected officials. The state legislators, whom we choose & vote for, heard their constituents say- we want more of a voice. Not the FL DNC- they had NOTHING to do with the change! A national primary, or Super Duper Tuesday is not the answer either. That defeats the purpose of the primary system, and the ability of lesser known candidates to gain momentum (and money). Believe me, we get plenty of attention from the primary candidates... but they all have their hands out looking for money. They're hear for fundraising not for platforms. There needs to be reform,

BTW- FL didn't cost the Gore the election. The 526 votes that consistently put GW on top did. Maybe Dems. need to be a bit more educated on how to punch a hole!

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Joe, DC — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 21:43:01 GMT

Sara...I agee with you. They knew the rules and voted for them.

Why does Florida always act like a third world country? Whenever there is a voting problem...surprise Fla is front and center

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Gerry, Anchorage, Alaska — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 22:36:32 GMT

"The media needs to investigate, all this." - John Apperton

Dear Mr. Apperton:

The media is exactly the entity that SHOULDN'T be investigating this. It's because of media hype and over-the-top political coverage that primaries have become so important to the process that states are willing to cut one another's throats in a neverending game of one-upsmanship to see who gets to go first. These machinations are absolutely ridiculous, as is this insane and totally overblown (by your chosen investigator, "the media") emphasis on Iowa and New Hampshire.

Screw 'em all. We need to implement a three-part approach to this issue: 1) There should be a national primary day where all the states vote at once. No states go first, no states go last, they all go simultaneously. 2) Implement strict (and I mean strict) public campaign financing. This would mitigate the disparity between less-funded and wealthier candidates, thereby putting everybody on a level playing field. In order to qualify to run for office, candidates would have to gather X number of signatures. 3) Enact a fixed campaign schedule to limit campaigning to start, say, three or four months prior to the national primary, which could be held in spring of the election year. That would give candidates four months leading into a spring primary, then another six or so leading to the general election.

God willing, these modifications might give us our lives back for the two years prior to a presidential election.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Paul Miller, Woodbridge, VA — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:36:37 GMT

Florida Democrats seem to have no legal standing on this one. If it goes to court, I have to think the DNC will and ought to win.

Parties set their own internal rules for nominations.

On a broader level, I agree with Sara. Florida seems hellbent to do what it wants for the sake of its partymembers, regardless of the strains placed on other states and the presidential candidates.

Someone above suggested there could be more to the story, and I'm the first to admit I don't know what I don't know. But based on what I do know, I have to side with the DNC on this one.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

PubesAgainstBush, Tallahassee, FL — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 11:29:48 GMT

I don't believe this was a conspiracy by Florida pubies since they are likely to be sanctioned by the RNC as well. This is just one of the idiotic bills they passed in the last session. I don't believe the Florida pubies have enough collective brain cells to carry out a conspiracy of this nature.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Independent, Texas — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 12:10:31 GMT

This whole thing just confuses the hell out of me. It isn't just the DNC that is threatening retribution against FL, the RNC is doing so as well.

Good grief.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Edna — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:25:31 GMT

To Sara of Cedar Rapids: your comments about Florida voters are extremely offensive, infuriating and inaccurate. I, for one Florida Democrat, have been an ardent Al Gore supporter since 1988. YES: 1988! So please do not make the sweeping and inaccurate statement that Floridians thought there was no difference between shrub and Gore. Second of all, it was not the voters of Florida that cost us the 2000 election, it was Bush's law-flouting cronies such as one Ms. Katherine Harris who would not do a recount and refused to follow the rule of law (something which turned out to be a consistent pattern of the Bush administration). Florida actually WENT FOR GORE, but our votes were never counted due to the Republican efforts to subvert the election process. So please get your facts straight, because us Florida Democrats have suffered enough from the trauma of the 2000 election to having our own party now threaten to make our votes in the 2008 primary not count due to a primary date set by a REPUBLICAN legislature. We do not need your ignorant, clueless, offensive and inaccurate comments about Florida voters thrown into the mix.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Sara, Cedar Rapids, Iowa — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:35:11 GMT

Dash, Tampa Fl & Gerry, Anchorage, Al

Dash If we had federally funded elections, and if the media was required to give equal time to all candidates then I would not be as concerned if a large state where commercial costs shut out all but the most well funded, but not necessarily the best candidate. However the reality is that if you had large states first, or as Gerry proposes a national primary it would prevent a candidate with less funding to have a chance. Do you know why Mitt Romney is leading in Iowa right now? Money, simple as that, not only did he initially have the largest GOP contributions, but he has enormous personal wealth. This has enabled him to buy ad time, purchase the straw poll etc. However, because of the current system a candidate who is better (in the eyes of the particular party) can win in Iowa and New Hampshire, even if he/she is less funded. (Romney's showing at the straw poll was actually weaker than expected, it is estimated that as much as 10% of the people he bused to the event, and paid the entry fee for did not vote for him) This can't happen if we were to switch to the system Gerry proposes, or Florida tries to screw over every candidate except Hillary. Most years the candidate who has won Iowa was not the candidate with the largest campaign war chest. It was the candidate who survived the retail politics process. The one who withstood the often brutal and blunt questions from activists, who literally are looking for a candidate to support. While candidate at debates often ignore the actual question, or deflect it, etc., and usually get away with it, if they fail to actually answer the question on the campaign stump, they will be asked again, and they will be booed. This is why Hillary has not had the traditional events where Iowans are allowed to ask questions. She has had a few events early last spring that were open to the public (as opposed to her many house parties with restricted access) but after refusing to directly answer a question on her war vote, not reading the NIE, etc., and being booed, because she wouldn't directly answer the question, or gave a BS answer that insulted the audiences attention, her subsequent events have been rally events (she brought Bill in July and is bringing him back next week in order to boost attendance, she's afraid if she has rallys without him her crowds will be embarrassingly small- and she is right) Normally a candidate doesn't hold that type of event until very close to the caucus.

The DNC and RNC which was represented by every state voted on the rules, two states were added to the January calendar by the DNC (So. Carolina and Nevada) to add the diversity. And states choose, and are still considering changing their dates (i.e. Michigan) at this late date. Whether states other than Iowa and New Hampshire should go first is obviously subject to opinion, but the fact is the calendar and rules were agreed to, as well as the sanctions, and screwing with the calendar at this late date is wrong. Who does it help? While I'd hate to lose the first in the nation status, I would much rather the DNC rotate the first caucus and primary state in the future, if need be to insure respect for the calendar with the caveat that those first two states be states with small populations with close to equal GOP and DEM registration. It is the only way we have a chance (not a guarantee) of having the best nominee as opposed to the best financed.

Any other way and you are going to have voters in Florida, or other large state vote based upon the media's portrayal of the candidate. Living in Iowa and being involved in politics from an early age (my Dad was in the legislature while I was growing up)I learned long ago that what is in the media is often unrelated to what happened. I'm not saying the MSM is lying, but often what they choose to air gives a false sense of what happened. I went to the Lance Armstrong forum on Monday. Clinton was the first candidate, and she was warmly received, but it was clear that Edwards was preferred by the crowd (I don't support either, but will support the nominee)Even Kucinich had a far more robust response from the crowd despite the crowd being 20% less when he was finally on (Many Clinton supporters left after Hillary, and many more people left after Edwards- either because they only wanted to hear those two, or because the event was running over and people had to get back to work, get to lunch etc.). However on Monday MSNBC's coverage was almost exclusively of Hillary, and there was no mention of crowd response. People are influenced by their perception of how others view a candidate, if we had a large state primary early, or national primary, people who weren't present would be left with the impression that Hillary wowed the crowd and was the favorite, and the media's bias becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I for one would prefer a candidate who is required to answer questions from real people, and who is election tested, than to find out after the primary that the nominee is fatally flawed.

Dash- I don't doubt that Gore actually won Florida, and if all the votes were counted, and the Supreme Court didn't stop the recount Gore would have been President. However, the reality is a number of people voted for Pat Buchanan by mistake, because the butterfly ballot confused them. And if only 10% of those stupid Floridians who voted for Nader had stopped to think about what they were doing and voted for the only candidate with a chance to win, who clearly is closer to Nader's views, then Gore would have won Florida. Actually if only 1% of Nader's voters had voted with their head (assuming they have the capacity to think logically) then Gore would have won! Florida screwed up, I'm sure you weren't part of the problem. I'm sure you were able to properly punch out the chad, and I'm sure you weren't an idiot who voted for Nader, however voters in Florida (not all voters) did cost Gore the election. And for some reason Florida wants the rest of the country to ignore the fact that Florida's DNC rep's agreed to the calendar, agreed to sanctions for the violation of the calendar, and trust that Florida won't screw up the nomination if they go ahead with the 1/29 date. Sorry I don't have that much blind faith!

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Sara, Cedar Rapids, Iowa — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:13:12 GMT

Edna,

Of course not all Floridians are to blame for the 2000 election, nor did I ever say they were, nor do I think someone with any objectivity would draw that conclusion. My Aunt and Uncle from Miami voted for Gore, as did the majority of Floridians. The reason the media first declared Gore the winner of Florida was because he won the exit polls, which is evidence of intent of Floridians to elect Gore. However, the reality is that because a lot of old people in Palm Beach county (where my Grandpa retired) were confused by the butterfly ballot, and voted for Pat Buchanan Gore did not receive a lot of votes intended for him (enough votes to have won without a recount if they were cast properly). Pat Buchanan admitted there was no way that many people in Palm Beach county intended to vote for him. The butterfly ballot wasn't the best design, but it was a democrat officeholder who designed the ballot, and it was approved by both the GOP and DEM party before the election. But even with the confused Palm Beach voters, and the voters who failed to fully punch out the chad so the machine didn't read their vote, none of this would have been a problem if 90,000 Floridians had not so stupidly believed there was no difference between Gore and Bush. I followed the recount closely, it should have been allowed to continue, the Supreme Court should have stayed out of it. But Florida never would have been a problem if just 10% of the 90,000 who voted for Nader had voted for the candidate with a chance to win who was closest to Nader.

I do not blame the entire state, I have relatives, whom I love from Florida. And I recognize the total number of Floridians who screwed up (whether by voting for Nader, not fully punching out the chad, or voting for Buchanan by mistake)is a very small percent of the total number of votes cast. However to ignore the fact that heavily democrat areas of Palm Beach county screwed up and voted for Buchanan when they wanted to vote for Gore, that 90,000 Floridians voted for Nader, and that far too many voters didn't press the chad hard enough so the machine did not count their vote caused the events that followed, and allowed the GOP to steal the election is to ignore or deny reality. You should not take it personal when someone says that Florida cost Gore the election, unless you accidentally voted for Buchanan, didn't fully punch out the chad, or cast a protest vote for Nader then when people blame Florida they aren't referring to you. We understand that the overwhelming number of voters in Florida cast their votes as they intended, and we understand that the overwhelming number of Florida voters are not to blame. However to deny that but for action by some citizens in Florida Gore would have been elected President is to deny reality.

You also ignore that the Democrats voted unanimously to move the election date to 1/29 knowing full well of the penalty that would cause. If no Florida democrat had voted for the bill, and if some had not publicly supported moving the primary date before the bill was proposed, and this really was action only of the GOP I would have some sympathy for Florida, but the fact is that 100% of Florida Democrats voted in favor of the bill, that numerous Florida democrats were in favor of moving the date, and made public statements to that effect long before the bill was introduced. I really doubt that the Florida GOP would have moved the primary to 1/29 without the support of Democrats, and we'll never know the answer to that, because many Democrats publicly supported and urged the change before hand, and 100% voted to move the primary date. Also you seem to not realize that the GOP can not dictate when the Democrats hold their primary. Florida can still decide to abide by the rules their DNC rep previously bound your state to and either hold a caucus on 1/29 and receive no delegate penalty, or have the 1/29 primary be a non-binding event and hold a subsequent primary. Instead the politicians in Florida are playing a game of chicken, they are spoiled and selfish, and if Florida is denied delegates it will be the Democrat party and elected officials in Florida to blame. But I guess given you can't accept any one in your state had any responsibility for the 2000 vote, it is too much to expect you to look at this objectively either.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Edna, St. Petersburg, Florida — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:56:37 GMT

Sara, you are so infuriating! Wow. I usually don't get this infuriated at people on the internet but congratulations, you have really done it. First of all, you are preaching to the choir regarding how the Nadar voters are partially responsible for putting Bush in the White House. But I am talking about the Nadar vote NATIONALLY. Why you choose to single out Florida and blame all Florida voters for the shrub junta being in power, when guess what, Nadar siphoned off voters from Gore in every other state as well, is beyond my comprehension. Do you not get that the Republicans subverted the rule of law and stole the 2000 election? You keep blaming Florida voters. omg, I cannot even respond any further because YES I get very emotional over this. If a Florida voter, a Democrat, a Gore supporter, and a patriotic supporter of the constitution and the rule of law cannot get emotional and upset over the 2000 election, what can she get upset over? And then people like yourself who come along and displace the blame onto "Florida" in general or the Florida voters or whatever, omg, too infuriating. I feel like I feel when I watch the opening sequence of Fahrenheit 9.11, like I could just cry all over again.

All I can tell you, from the heart, is that the majority of Florida voters wanted Gore and EVERY DAY as we suffer through the horrors of what the Bush administration is doing to this country and the world, I think about how different it would have been had our votes been counted and had Gore been in the White House. EVERY day.

And now our own party wants to take away any meaning from our presidential primary vote in 2008? And we have people on the internet chiming in and saying, yeah, those Florida voters and/or Florida Democrats, it is all their fault, every bit of it, everything.

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Edna, St. Petersburg, Florida — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 19:00:12 GMT

P.S.! 1.) There was a lot of other IMPORTANT stuff in that bill and this is why the Democrats signed off on it, but it was the Republicans who wanted that dang date; and 2.) A caucus? Do you not even know/realize that there is a profoundly important state constitutional issue getting voted on, on the 1/29 primary date and a caucus on some other date would siphon Democratic voters off from turning out on the 29th voting on that date (to the delight of the Republicans, who are, as usual, on the WRONG side of the issue I'm referring to), plus it would be hugely expensive plus WHY SHOULD WE HOLD SOME BEAUTY CONTEST instead of casting our votes on the state-set primary date set by the Republican legislature?

Sorry. No can do.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Sara, Cedar Rapids, Iowa — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 20:54:25 GMT

Edna,

I think anyone who voted for Nader threw away their vote however, name one state other than Florida where the votes for Nader mattered? There was no other state where the outcome would have been different if 100% of the Nader votes had voted for Gore. And prior to the election many of the Nader supporters attempted to get supporters in swing states to match up with Gore supporters in states that were not swing (either totally blue like NY- or no chance red states) so that their vote for Nader wouldn't effect the election.

I'm sorry that I upset you, but you should not take my statement of facts as a slam on every human in the state of Florida, that is foolish. But to ignore the fact that Nader supporters in Florida and Florida alone cost Gore Florida is to put your head in the sand.

I don't disagree that the election was stolen, however look at the vote totals, if Palm Beach county residents had not screwed up and accidentally voted for Buchanan, Gore would have won. If voters wanting Gore had taken the time to make sure they punched the chad all the way through(and why have a punch card ballot anyway?)Gore would have won. These are facts. You can blame the GOP, but the bottom line is a democrat designed the butterfly ballot, it was approved by the Democrat and GOP party, you can't blame the inability to vote correctly in Palm Beach county on the GOP. I would have loved for all the votes to be counted, but again you can't blame the GOP because certain Florida voters weren't careful in punching out the chad.

Yes it would have been great if the votes were counted. But unfortunately voters in Florida created much of the problem. Please answer this 1. How is the GOP, Bush, or any one other than each individual Florida voter responsible for failing to make sure they completely punched the chad through? 2. Name one state that Gore did not win that he would have won, other than Florida had all the Nader voters in that state voted for Gore?(In Florida Gore would have won the state with only 1% of the Nader vote, and in no state other than Florida did the Nader vote affect the outcome!) 3. Explain how the GOP, Bush etc. was responsible for Palm Beach residents ballot confusion?

In answer to your PS I'm well aware there was "other IMPORTANT stuff" in the bill. I watched the entire proceeding on c-span Saturday. Florida democrats tried to persuade the DNC to forgive their failure to follow the rules they previously agreed to be bound to. They explained how they had tried to get paper ballots, but couldn't get the bill passed because the legislature is dominated by the GOP, and the GOP put this in the bill so they had no choice. And I know about the tax reduction bill that would negatively affect teachers is being held on 1/29, and Florida Democrats wanted the election on 1/29 so that they could have a high turn out. I understand why the Democrats voted as they did. And I actually had sympathy for them until the DNC representatives were allowed to comment, and it became clear that some of the Florida Democrats presenting the case to the DNC had made false statements. One had claimed that the Florida DNC delegates had voted against the calendar and sanctions during the DNC meeting to approve the calendar and sanctions. This apparently was false. Also, long before the tax reduction bill was scheduled and long before the GOP enticed the Florida democrats to vote 100% in favor changing the date in violation of DNC rules many Democrat legislators in Florida publicly supported and urged changing the date.

Look like it or not the GOP played games, but even before the GOP played their games, many Florida democrats were thumbing their nose at the DNC and advocating moving Florida ahead of the prior agreed to date with full knowledge that the DNC has full ability to levee sanctions against any state that violates the agreed on calendar. Maybe if you and other Florida Democrats would contact their state and federal representatives and tell them Florida should play by the rules they previously agreed to, instead of blaming the DNC for enforcing rules Florida's own DNC rep's agreed to, you wouldn't have to worry about penalties.

You ask: Why should Florida hold a beauty contest, or caucus to come into compliance with the calendar that their DNC representatives previously agreed to, and which they agreed violation of the calendar would result in the loss of delegates? Do you really not understand why? If I sign a contract, and change my mind and violate the contract should I not be held liable for my breach?

Explain to me how changing the date of primaries in violation of the previously (UNANIMOUSLY AGREED TO CALENDAR BY THE DNC REP'S FROM EACH OF THE 50 STATES)agreed to calendar is fair to Sen's Biden, Dodd, Obama, Gov. Richardson or John Edwards? These campaigns have already signed leases for their Iowa and NH headquarters, they have worked hard at retail politics in these states, and now Florida wants to screw them over and require them to compete in one of the most expensive media states? There is a reason only Hillary Clinton is ok with Florida violating the rules. She has the money, and can get more. Moving Florida IN VIOLATION TO THE RULES FLORIDA AGREED TO hurts almost all the presidential candidates. Frankly I'm more concerned with the candidates, than Florida's little tantrum. Please explain to me how changing the calendar is fair to the candidates? And if you don't care about being fair to the candidates, why should I or anyone else care about Florida?

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

IRVING D. SWATTS, KNOXVILLE, TN. — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 23:36:12 GMT

I DON'T TRUST A DAMN REPUBLICAN AND NEVER WILL. I FELL FOR GEORGE'S EXPLINATION OF THE WAR, BACKED HIM UP ON IT, AND FOUND OUT LATER I WAS LIED TO BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.I WILL DO EVERYTHING IN MY POWER TO MAKE SURE NO REPUBLICAN IS ELECTED. END OF STORY. P.S. BUSH AND NIXON STILL SUCK ! AND BUSH AND HIS CRONIES ARE RIPPING OFF AMERICA. AND WE ARE HEADDING INTO A RECESSION.YOU REPUBLICANS ARE A BUNCH OF IDIOTS ! THANK YOU AND HAVE A NICE DAY.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Edna, St. Petersburg, Florida — Thu, 30 Aug 2007 13:21:47 GMT

"Edna, I think anyone who voted for Nader threw away their vote."

Agreed! Again, on that you are preaching to the choir. I personally argued with a Nader supporter, in front of my entire neighborhood association no less, before the 2000 election because she said that she saw "no difference" between Gore and Bush (WHAT?!!!!) and was therefore voting for Nader. I clearly saw before the election even happened that Nader votes would put Bush into the White House and I BEGGED her to vote for Gore. Literally begged and pleaded to beat the band. Anyway, I'm sooooo with you on that and I get very empassioned about it, BUT what you don't seem to realize is that Nader votes nationwide affected the outcome, not just in Florida. Florida is only ONE state. A large, pivotal one, true, but ONE state. Why blame Florida alone for what happened? What about all the other states that went bright red on election night 2000? Why don't you "blame" them the way you blame Florida. At least in Florida it was razor close and that is why things unfolded like they did. Many states just went redder than red and that was all she wrote. All I can tell you is we in Florida TRIED, but is it our fault that many in this state and this entire country were stupid enough (sorry, gotta call it like I see it) to vote for W. and for Nader? Besides, again, Florida actually did go for Gore. Had there been a recount as there should have been, that fact would be more commonly known, not to mention we would be living in a very different world as we speak today.

"There was no other state where the outcome would have been different if 100% of the Nader votes had voted for Gore."

Well, what about all the states where they votes were for BUSH? Are they somehow off the hook?

"I'm sorry that I upset you, but you should not take my statement of facts as a slam on every human in the state of Florida, that is foolish."

I know I seem really (really!) emotional on this and at times my arguments lapse from any logic into pure passion, but that is because like I said, I was and still am a passionate Al Gore supporter and lifelong Democrat, not to mention a person who loves our constitution and rule of law, and I saw all of that attacked in 2000. And what has happened since with the Bush administration in power is nothing short of awful and horrifying to me every day. And now my own party wants to disenfranchise my and every other Democrat's votes in the 2008 primary? Too much to take. And when people start saying "Well, Florida this and Florida that" I get a tad (just a tad *lol*!) defensive because, come on, give us a break. Give the PEOPLE of Florida a break here. We didn't cause what happened in 2000. Far from it, we sat there with our jaws on the floor and tears in our eyes and watched it all unfold in horror. And now we didn't cause the fact that our state legislature decided to subvert the rules and move the primary up, which I don't think they should have done. And yes, some Democrats did vote for the bill but that is only because the Republicans who orchestrated the moving up of the date cleverly put a bunch of other important stuff in the bill and basically it was vote for this bill or you won't get the other important things through. Maybe the Dems should have fought harder against the date move up but they aren't the ones who had the control, truly.

"But to ignore the fact that Nader supporters in Florida and Florida alone cost Gore Florida is to put your head in the sand."

Okay, we agree again: If not for the infuriating Nader supporters, Florida would clearly and unarguably have gone for Gore. So in that sense, if you just look at that myopically, it makes your argument that "Florida" cost Gore the election. But again, what about all the other states that did not go for Gore?! It was a national election. I wish with all my heart that the Nader voters had gone for Gore. I wish that Nader--whom I always previously admired before 2000--would NOT have chosen to run against Al Gore of all people!!! I was furious at him about that from the git-go, I saw exactly what would happen. And it did.

"I don't disagree that the election was stolen..."

Yup.

"however look at the vote totals, if Palm Beach county residents had not screwed up and accidentally voted for Buchanan, Gore would have won."

Well, apparently that butterfly ballot was more than a little confusing, but yes, it is maddening that that happened.

"If voters wanting Gore had taken the time to make sure they punched the chad all the way through(and why have a punch card ballot anyway?)Gore would have won."

Okay, do you know how many states at that time had punch-card ballots? And they are actually a good system, btw. Better than the easily hackable Diebold machines we are stuck with now and here's a very relevant point: Do you know why the state Democrats agreed to pass the Republican bill that had the primary date moved up? Because it also provided for a PAPER BALLOT for those machines, which have not had them previously! There has been no paper trail at all for these machines so you are trusting that your vote is counted correctly. As Christine Jennings, Democratic candidate from west central Florida, how that went for her in a recent election. Google her name and you will see that the Republican election stealing just goes on. Diebold is a huge Republican contributer. Anyway...(I haven't even had breakfast yet today *lol*...)

"I would have loved for all the votes to be counted, but again you can't blame the GOP because certain Florida voters weren't careful in punching out the chad."

Frankly, I don't think anyone knew what a "chad" was until 2000, you just punched your pin through your card and hoped for the best, trusting that your vote would count. I grew up in Maryland and we had punch card ballots there, too. I've never in my life given a thought to my vote not being counted until what happened in 2000. But now on an Al Gore forum I belong to, my moniker is "hanging chad". And this brings us to what I object to about your attitude, although I must say that you turn out to be a reasonable person and I do apologize for how emotional I am over this whole issue but it is just a biggie to me. What I object to is when you say things like, "well, if Floridians had been more careful in punching through their cards, the election would have turned out differently..." All states with punch-card ballots end up with a certain number of hanging, pregnant or whatever chads. It was not the hanging chads that cost Gore the election, it was the systemic efforts of the Republican Bush cronies such as Katherine Harris et al. to impede the recount process and a fair election. You had Katherine Harris, you had Jeb Bush, I mean, it was all surreal. Please don't blame the Florida voters, that is all I'm saying, that is my bottom line in all these posts. We (and the whole country and our rule of law) were the victims in this, not the perpetrators of it. The actions of Katherine Harris and the Republican party at that time stole the election from Al Gore. Granted, had the margin of Gore's win in FL not been so razor thin, we wouldn't be having this discussion, and I wish this were a solidly blue state, but it isn't. Just like many other states, it unfortunately isn't. But is that the Democratic voters faults? Again, I practically begged the Nader voters I know to go for Gore, not to mention the Bush voters, but it was a no go. Just as nationally many people voted for Bush (and some for Nader), so did they in Florida. More people in the nation and in Florida voted for Gore, though. The election was stolen. Don't blame the hanging chads, blame the Katherine Harrises.

"Yes it would have been great if the votes were counted. But unfortunately voters in Florida created much of the problem. Please answer this 1. How is the GOP, Bush, or any one other than each individual Florida voter responsible for failing to make sure they completely punched the chad through?"

Oh dear Lord. Girl, have you ever voted using a punch card system? Again, in both Maryland and Florida, that is the only system I ever used prior to the post-2000 world. You can't tell at the time you punch your "pin" through if it totally got the "chad" or what. Afterwards, you can visually inspect your card but, trust me, no one on earth (except me because I'm a neurotic nut) ever would think to scrutinize their ballot for a dangling chad before 2000. I did used to check to make sure I had a cleanly punched card but I don't think most non-worry-wort people did because no one even knew that a hanging chad was a prob until 2000. You just punched your card, handed it to the person or put it in the ballot box, got your little "I voted!" sticker, and you were on your way. This was in all states with a punch card system. Florida had no more or no fewer hanging chads than any other state, Sara. It is just that no other state had such a razor thin margin and such scrutiny of the ballots afterwards. The entire nation got an education about hanging chads after 2000. But, see, you are blaming the Florida voters again for what happened in 2000 and that is what kills me because I am a Florida voter and you won't find a more ardent Gore supporter on planet earth, or a more careful voter. I, for one, did give my card the once-over as always. Frankly, I don't think most voters used to do that pre-2000. But in any event, Florida had no more and no fewer hanging chads than any other state. Why blame our voters? That is what just kills me. Like the 2000 nightmare isn't bad enough, adding the knowledge that thoughtful, seemingly intelligent people like yourself BLAME US is horrible. My chad was punched clean through, that's all I can tell ya!!!

"Explain how the GOP, Bush etc. was responsible for Palm Beach residents ballot confusion?"

Hey, I don't blame the repugs for Palm Beach. I don't even begin to make sense out of what happened in Palm Beach. But as the news media pointed out at the time, if any other state's balloting system and election process was under as much of a scrutinizing microscope as Florida's was at that time, you would find some weirdness. And indeed that did happen as some other states had recounts (states without a pro-Bush Republican apparatus that wouldn't allow that process). I don't say Florida's election system was perfect. Far from it! Just that we weren't any worse than any other state. Had there been a proper RECOUNT, Gore would have been in the White House.

"I watched the entire proceeding on c-span Saturday."

I love c-span but I don't have cable so I miss a lot. I did manage to catch some of the DNC meeting by going to someone's house who has cable, but I only saw a part of it. I applaud you for watching c-span and getting the real facts about what goes on in proceedings like that instead of just taking the media's nanosecond soundbyte spin on things. I wish more people would watch c-span. Anyway, glad you saw that and I wish I had seen the entire thing.

"Florida democrats...explained how they had tried to get paper ballots, but couldn't get the bill passed because the legislature is dominated by the GOP, and the GOP put this in the bill so they had no choice. And I know about the tax reduction bill that would negatively affect teachers is being held on 1/29, and Florida Democrats wanted the election on 1/29 so that they could have a high turn out. I understand why the Democrats voted as they did."

Just a slight objection to you phrasing the constitutional amendment as a "tax reduction" one. It is actually a long-term tax INCREASE that is being sold to the public as a tax reduction. It would reduce taxes for some in the short run and also devastate cities and schools, etc. In the long term, it would phase out the Save Our Homes cap and allow property taxes to go up in unlimited fashion.

"And I actually had sympathy for them until the DNC representatives were allowed to comment, and it became clear that some of the Florida Democrats presenting the case to the DNC had made false statements. One had claimed that the Florida DNC delegates had voted against the calendar and sanctions during the DNC meeting to approve the calendar and sanctions. This apparently was false."

I cannot argue that point since I don't know the truth on that one either way. If what you say is true, that is not good, I'm with you there.

"Also, long before the tax...bill was scheduled and long before the GOP enticed the Florida democrats to vote 100% in favor changing the date in violation of DNC rules many Democrat legislators in Florida publicly supported and urged changing the date."

True. And I can't argue that the date change is a clear violation of party rules.

"Look like it or not the GOP played games, but even before the GOP played their games, many Florida democrats were thumbing their nose at the DNC and advocating moving Florida ahead of the prior agreed to date with full knowledge that the DNC has full ability to levee sanctions against any state that violates the agreed on calendar."

True again.

"Maybe if you and other Florida Democrats would contact their state and federal representatives and tell them Florida should play by the rules they previously agreed to, instead of blaming the DNC for enforcing rules Florida's own DNC rep's agreed to, you wouldn't have to worry about penalties."

I think the FL legislature, both Dems and Repubs, should have played by the rules as far as NOT scheduling the primary for a date ahead of when both parties say it is allowed. I absolutely can't and won't argue for them breaking the primary date rules. Does the whole primary system need to be tweaked so that antics like this don't happen? Yes. But that still doesn't justify the FL legislature changing the primary date. However, to penalize the long-suffering VOTERS of Florida by taking away our delegates to the convention seems ridiculously draconian to moi.

"Please explain to me how changing the calendar is fair to the candidates?"

It wasn't and I don't think they should have done it. I don't have all the answers as to what the DNC could have done in response to "punish" the FL legislature and send a message to other states not to mess with the primary dates in ways that violate the party rules. However, I ALSO don't think the DNC should have responded by removing the Democratic delegates. Disenfranchsing innocent registered voters and thus probably causing some of them to decide not to turn out to the polls and vote was very self destructive to the party. We NEED Democrats to turn out and vote in the presidential primary but also, at least as importantly, on that tax amendment. We also need an enthusiastic, energized, active base of Democratic voters here in Florida. Not one that is kicked in the teeth by their own party for something they had no control over.

Peace out, I respect you for how you choose to make your arguments and your thoughtfulness. I just wish you would understand that the voters of Florida are not the cause of what happened in 2000--trust me, we are every bit as horrified by it as the rest of the Democratic voters in this country, and then some! We also had no control over what this daft state legislature decided to do with the primary date. I understand the predicament that the DNC found itself faced with, but I'm sorry, I just think that the "punishment" was misdirected onto the registered voters, ya know? Plus it was self-destructive to the party. I read someone describe it as a "circular firing squad" and that is how it seems to me.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Dawn Luty — Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:37:45 GMT

What people seem to be missing here is the fact that the democrats in FL are in a situation of taxation without representation. This under federal law is illegal. Our republican run state passed the Jan. 29th date in violation of the elections laws. Thus the republicans are using our own party to punish us. If FL thinks the state mandated budget cuts are hurting the counties now, wait till they see what happens when all of the states democrates refuse to pay taxes and there isn't anything they can do about it. While the local village idiot on these boards might think this is very amusing, will he if we turned the tables? How would he feel about his right to vote being infringed upon? And for future refrence yes he did steal an election here and the state conviently allowed anyone who wanted to have the ballots that were cast. Thus eliminating any chance of proving this issue to anyone other than Bushs' satisfaction! Get your facts straight before you decide to give us a piece of your mind, you can't afford to spare it.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

Dawn Luty — Mon, 03 Sep 2007 13:33:21 GMT

With all the insanity surrounding this issue it boggles the mind that the republicans are completely unaware of the underlying factors in this issue. First of all we have a Republican Govenor who signed our primary date into law, in direct conflict with national voting laws. This was not done by democrats. Second in the state of FL nobody has a right to do a citizen's poll, again passed into our laws by a republican govenor and a direct violation of federal as well as our own state laws. This is happening right now to us...smarten up... could be the otherside next time! The voice of the people is being silenced within our state and it is being done by you so called law abiding good cristian republicans.
This country was founded on a revolution, smarten up before we end up having to deal with another one.

Florida Dems fire back at DNC

John, Indianapolis — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:21:05 GMT

Jerry from texas is right, florida will be the down fall of the dems. Hitlery is gonna steal the nomination from Obama when the dems give her the Florida and Michigan deligates and Obama will get nothing but the shaft. Obamas supporters will walk out of the convention and the democrats will be hopelessly split. Hitlery is gonna hook up with Edwards and use the dirt she has on the dems powers that be to steal this nomination. When 90% of Obamas supporters stay home on election day McCane will win a landslide.