Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Shadow, Hamden, CT — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:13:15 GMT

The Dean comparison is faulty, as he brought in people from all over the place into Iowa, mostly consisting of young non-Midwesterners in bright orange hats. What Obama is doing is getting people from the same region; a few miles one way or another over a state border means very little in terms of culture. In fact, Obama's organization-based approach is the exact opposite of Dean's, which was based in anything but traditional community organization principles on the ground. The best comparison to the Dean campaign in this cycle is Clinton, whose huge national lead is setting up big expectations in Iowa that threatens to kill her campaign; if you look at Iowa campaign itself, the candidate who is best using the winning 2004 approach of optimism is Obama (the success of Kerry and Edwards, as opposed to the negative ads of the trailing Dean and Gephardt).

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Ole Hockema, Saginaw MI — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:21:45 GMT

Obama is done. Now's he's just spending the money people contributed to him.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Delaware Republican — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:27:38 GMT

Biden is a glad handing liberal gas bag. He's only in this to fund his retirement with tax payer dollars.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

jerry/corpus christi texas — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:30:14 GMT

Richardson can make all the stories he wants, he's not going to win.

Maybe John should give it up and let Elizabeth run, can you imagine Elizabeth and Hillary in a debate? Talk about a cat fight!

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

John — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:33:16 GMT

Clinton's "electability" comes in large part by having Rupert Murdoch in her corner. The dog and pony confrontations on Fox will still be there but by golly she'll fight. Forget substance. This whole experience notion is absurd. It has been twisted and boxed. Reality is Obama's experience proves him to be a leader and to be what this country needs. Readers research then vote.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

William — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 14:52:40 GMT

Obama concedes Biden has what may be the best diplomatic solution. They both believe in a phased withdrawal. As candidates they share the best understanding of Iraq. Obama knows how to listen.
His health care plan was nearly copied by Clinton. Hers is more big brother because of mandatory stipulations. This whole nonsensical "experience" shows us that she plays Washington and the press in a way we are tired of. Obama's experience is superior and what this country needs. He knows how to lead.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Wonk — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:15:34 GMT

I'm glad to see the Edwards' camp continuing to go after Hillary. Not because I think it'll help them, but because I think she'll make toast of them, and hasten their departure from the field.
You can always tell when the end of a fundraising quarter nears - Elizabeth Edwards goes on the warpath.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

FRAN, HOUSTON, TX — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 15:16:02 GMT

I LOVE ELIZABETH EDWARDS....KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Tareli, Fuquay Varina NC — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:04:16 GMT

John Edwards is a wimp. He needs his wife to fight his battles for him.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Mike — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:27:14 GMT

I think that in this time and place in American and world history, Clinton is exactly what we need. Obama has called her "Bush-Cheney Lite", I think a small case can be made for calling Obama "Bush-Cheney Left". Bush came in as a 'compassionate conservative' with not much experience but with goals and idea's to bring the country together in a bi-partisan way, he said he knew how to reach across the isle. He didn't. He was an idealogue who wanted everything to work out in a nice conservative way just because he wished it to be so. I think Obama is an idealogue also, he has very good ideas I think, but if there's something we should've learned in the last six years, is that wishing doesn't make it so. Just because something makes sense doesn't mean it's going to become law in this country. So you want to scrap the way politics in Washington works and build it back up as a compassionate, common sense institution? More power to you. But I just don't see that happening from scratch right now.
We have a war in Iraq in a permanent holding pattern, we're trillions of dollars in debt to China, the middle class is disapearing into a bottomlees hole of credit card debt, gas is pushing $3 a gallon, jobs are pouring overseas, health care is to the point where it's fast becoming an intsitution of economic genocide, and you want to send in Mr. Rainbows and butterflies to snap his fingers and smile and make it all better? The next Democratic President is in for a knock down drag out fight with an entrenched corporate establishment, and eight years of bitterly dirty politics, international and internal distrust. I want someone who can hit hard and play the game that's being played, not someone just off the bench and who doesn't like the rules. No one likes the way this government is working right now, but I think we're going to needs someone who knows how it works to fix it, and someone who's not above getting her hands a little dirty in the process. Maybe I'm being too pragmatic, but I want a Democratic George S. Patton walking into the White House in 2009 rather than Mr. Rodgers.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

jerry/corpus christi texas — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:53:26 GMT

Mike:

I think you forgot who caused all the problems with China in the first place:

Clinton signs China trade bill
October 10, 2000
Web posted at: 6:28 p.m. EDT (2228 GMT)

By Matt Smith/CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Clinton closed years of political and economic debate Tuesday, and sealed a major achievement of his administration by signing a bill extending permanent, normal trade status to China.

"Today we take a major step toward China's entry into the World Trade Organization and a major step toward answering some of the central challenges of this new century," Clinton said in a bipartisan White House ceremony Tuesday afternoon.

"Trade with China will not only extend our nation's unprecedented economic growth, it offers us a chance to help shape the future of the world's most prosperous nation and to reaffirm our own global leadership for peace and prosperity."

Bill Clinton was the president when he signed to trade with China. he is the idiot responsible for all the bad products coming over here.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Shadow, Hamden, CT — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 16:58:32 GMT

Mike - You should read more by and about Obama. One of the key defining themes in his life that has formed and driven him is that he's a pragmatist and not an idealogue.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

craig, IL — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:06:16 GMT

I wish Elizabeth Edwards well in her struggle against cancer. However, her attacks on Hillary Clinton are nothing but utter desperation and remind everyone just how far ahead Hillary is. Instead of attacks, Edwards and Obama need some substance to overcome Hillary. But because there is no substance, strength or experience amongst the two of them, they are forced to go on the attack against a fellow democrat – pathetic!

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Rick Lapin, Albuquerque, NM — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:09:34 GMT

If you think "partitioning" Iraq is gonna be a cakewalk that will quickly bring our troops home, you need your head examined.

They will fight it tooth and nail, with real bullets, IEDs, and dead GIS, if for no other reason than that we are doing the partitioning.

And after we spend eight bloody years trying to impose that partition, the 2016 Presidential Campaign will feature a stunning New Plan that insists that the only way to "bring 'em home" will be to UNIFY Iraq.

Well, gosh -- I guess the toughest thing about administering an unwilling colony is convincing the folks back home how easy it'll be to sell them furriners a plan that the home folks themselves'd never buy in a million years, huh?

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Jerry Sardella, Eagleville, PA — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 17:13:43 GMT

Mike is right! He said it well. None of the present candidates in either party fit Mike's requirements. One man of neither party does and he hasn't declared yet. I am waiting patiently for him.
Jerry

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Mike — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:03:52 GMT

Don't get me wrong, I like Obama as well, I think he's got some really great ideas and real drive to make them happen. And I have no doubt the country will be better off by far as his ideas are worked into the fabric of our country. I just really believe that right now is not his time. If he is nominated though I will work my butt off to get him elected and wish him the best.

Yes, I'm aware Clinton signed the trade bill with China, he opened the doors to allow capitalism to work it's change over there the way it helped work some change into the Soviet Union. I thought it would be a good idea in the long run too, Clinton opened the door, but GWB turned on the blue light special and turned the country into China's private Sam's Club. Why is there such an 'all or nothing' attitude on the right sometimes? Why do they assume that just because Bush can't do it, it can't be done? Or because someone else did it, or at least tried to do the right way, then they can go in and screw it up and just point a finger back 10 years ago and say "He started it" If you think it's a bad idea, then that makes you an idiot if you keep doing it. Stop blaming people and go fix it. Or shut up, get out of the way, and let someone in there who can.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:05:22 GMT

DELEWARE REPUBLICAN:

We get it. You don't like Biden.

But, you like calling him variations on "wind bag."

Guess it takes one to know one.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:10:05 GMT

Rick -

The key component of the plan is to bring neighboring countries into the process. It is called diplomacy.

When you simplify for your own political purposes you are behaving exactly like the Bush Administration.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Rick Lapin, Albuquerque, NM — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 18:55:55 GMT

Elizabeth --

To pretend that such "diplomacy" will not be based on military force is foolish at best, dishonest at worst.

I notice you do not claim that the Iraqis will not violently resist partitioning, because, quite simply, you can't.

Pointing out the exceptionally probable outcome of any given action is hardly pursuing my "own political purposes" -- and is, in fact, exactly the opposite of how the Bush Administration has always behaved. Putting on rose-colored glasses, spewing best-case-only scenarios, and ignoring stark realities ... those are the hallmarks of the Bushistas -- and, it appears, the Bidenites as well.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Carrie, Eastern Iowa — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:11:43 GMT

Rick - What do you propose as the solution to the problems in Iraq? I hear a lot of people complaining about this plan or that plan, but not many offering up what they think would be a good plan.

I don't know if partitioning would work. As Biden pointed out, it seems to be working in the former Yugoslovia. Iraq as it exists today is not a nation of people who are tied together through some shared experience or characteristics. It never was. It was an area that was given artificial boundaries when the region was "given" to Britain after WWI. Why not let it return to some sort of natural boundaries?

I wonder what the people of Iraq think about Biden's plan. I like it, but I'm not sure that it is something that it would be fair to just impose on them, given that our big emphasis now is on making Iraq a democratic state.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Stacy S. Medford OR — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 19:58:41 GMT

DELAWARE REPUBLICAN:

President Biden will work to protect your retirement too. You can thank him later.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Rick Lapin, Albuquerque, NM — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:09:18 GMT

Carrie --

"Letting it return" to some sort of "natural boundaries" is not at all the same as telling them what those boundaries are going to be, and when, and how. Not even remotely. Not to mention the population relocation which will be necessarily involved, with all the "Trail of Tears" potentialities that holds.

Biden's "plan" requires the Iraqis to accept three partitions, none of which would be powerful enough to defend itself, under a "weak" (read: US-controlled) central government -- which by definition lacks the strength to keep the three parts in line without active US military assistance well into the foreseeable future.

Iraq is not Yugoslavia, or anything even remotely resembling it; the intellectual, religious, and social traditions that accepted that kind of settlement in the Europe will resist it in the Middle East -- and resist it hard.

And the more we try to cloak our colonization in a welter of "we-know-what's-best-for-you-little-brothers" rhetoric and self-serving political "solutions", the more they can be expected to resist hard; does anyone here think their leaders have not studied the way the West has run this same game on them since WWI? We have no credibility, not a shred; and after all that has gone down in Iraq since our invasion, simply changing Presidents (unlike here, where we just love to be gulled time and again) is not going to affect that credibility one little jot.

My solution? Well, if you want to turn Iraq into a permanent, unwilling, dependent protectorate -- with a permanent active US military presence and all the cost and casualties that involves -- go ahead and cut 'er up. Otherwise, get the hell out -- with all the oil-market disruptions and inter-civilian violence attendant on the sort of "natural" correction of Iraqi boundaries you mention.

Finally, Carrie -- I'm just an analyst. I report on the probable costs and risks of given course of action as honestly as I possibly can, based on a certain amount of actual training in the fields where I venture to comment at all. I am commenting here because the proponents of partitioning are making it sound like a strictly bloodless diplomatic venture -- and it will not be.

It will not bring the troops home quickly; it will, in fact, prolong our shooting presence in Iraq.

Now, those who told y'all the invasion/occupation wouldn't be a cakewalk should have been listened to; and those who are telling you now that partitioning won't be one, either, should also be listened to; the job of an analyst is not to propose an alternate plan every time he or she spots a glaring flaw -- it is simply to let you know what the hell you're about to step in so you don't end up crying three years hence:

"Gosh, if only I'd known then what I know now ... !"

Y'all were told back then what would happen if you blundered into Iraq, and you're being told now what will happen if you partition Iraq.

Hope y'all make better use of the information this time around.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Virginia Sussex County Delaware. — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 20:23:59 GMT

Elizabeth: Delaware Republican and most of the other repubs in Delaware hate joe because they have not been able to unseat him for 30+ years after he beat their legend Boggs for his senate seat. Joe was 29 years old.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Scott, PA — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:09:44 GMT

The intellecctuals in the Senate, Dems and Reps are not considering Bidens Federation plan as partitioning

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Amy B Portland, ME — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 21:21:51 GMT

I detest David Brooks. Thanks, MSNBC for giving me a place to state this. Brooks, like Bush, doesn't understand how democracy works. (Probably he has never been to a genuine Town Meeting.)A democracy is not a tug of war between left and right. Its not about which side has the ball. A democracy is government by open debate which produces a better result than if one side or the other had its own way. I have sat in a Town Meeting and actually felt my mind change on issues I thought I had resolved. In a Town Meeting things get pretty heated, but often the debate produces consensus, or a more informed point of view, and sometimes a radical new solution. This is what is so powerful about democracy and why the netroots are as important as David Brook's much vaunted "center." Not to mention that the fact that the left wing loonies Brooks puts down have been more correct in their judgments on the Bush administration than Brooks has been.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Rusty, New York, NY — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 22:33:13 GMT

Few people had heard of John Edwards until he wowed the Bilderburg Conference in 2003 and was "anointed" to be John Kerry's running mate. Edwards is very well connected--CFR, Bilderburg and has lots of money. He probably won't win since he comes across as smarmy and insincere. And there are other CFR candidates running (virtually everyone except Gravel, Kucinich and Ron Paul). Whoever wrote about Murdoch was partially right; he is CFR also and may explain why his FOX network tries to thrash Ron Paul in each Fox debate. Unfair and unbalanced.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Mike — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:17:11 GMT

Nobody is saying partitioning will be bloodless but unless we take diplomatic action vacuums will be filled by forces like Iran, the Sunnis will have to count on Syria and Saudi Arabia then where do we go. Something has to be done and Biden has the best option.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Robert Chapman, Ithaca, NY — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:20:36 GMT

Brooks' comment about the net roots loosing steam is probably right.

What Brooks got wrong was the reason why.

The NetRoots are not losing their grip on the imagination because of a culture clash with blue collar dems.

They are losing their clout because the NetRoots are becoming more and more an echo chamber, intolerant of dissent and enforcing the orthodoxies of immediate withdrawal, single payor health coverage and Bush's impeachment.

Should the NetRoots go back to the previous form of airing divergent ideas and debating their merits, they will quickly regain their role as the leading edge of political discourse in this country.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Carrie, Eastern Iowa — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 23:41:44 GMT

Rick:

I have concerns about partitioning; I believe I stated as much. I have concerns about anything involving Iraq, but that's only natural given the incredible mess our lack of foresight got us into there.

As I said, I don't like the idea of the U.S. - or the so-called Coalition of the Willing - forcing this on the Iraqi people. At the same time, I am not sure they are willing to do what is necessary to have a flourishing democracy, independent of U.S. occupation. I'm not sure they are willing to do what is necessary to take responsibility for their country, to be honest.

But thank you for your reasonable and thoughtful response. :)

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Randy, Greenville South Carolina — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 01:59:29 GMT

John Edwards is an enormous phony. His wife is a disingenuous attack dog. They are subtly putting forth a detestable argument: neither a black nor a woman can be elected, so you better play it safe and go with Edwards.

Both Hillary and Obama would out-perform this huckster in the states where he alleges they can't win, because, well, red-staters are just too racist and mysoginistic to vote for them.

He really needs to stop that argument - it's reprehensible, and it's not the way to win a primary in a party that is PROUD of the fact that its front-runners are such pioneering individuals.

Jeez that guy's a phony.

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

Pat, Hendersonville, NC — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:24:59 GMT

Randy
Can't believe you're from Greenville, SC!!

Oh-eight (D): Elizabeth v. Hillary, again

H P Boston — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 19:06:55 GMT

Amy I agree Brooks makes my skin crawl. He is such a snoot! He kisses any ass stuck in his face, as long as it is the middle of his face.
His point of view is limited to his point of view.
I love van and j. Merle too! Well I think I love nuanced the most.