Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

bb — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:54:07 GMT

Another gigantic lie by a republican, surprise surprise.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

TEC-spring-tx — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:56:04 GMT

Just because it has been written does not mean it is true. What are the AMA stats? I would be more inclined to belive the AMA than a think tank and would even view those stats as suspect.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Nicholas Beaudrot — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:57:12 GMT

Nice work! That's a fact check that warms a wonk's heart.

Bonus points: will the lede the next time Giuliani repeats these numbers be "Rudy Giuliani continued to use outdated, misleading statistics that make the survival gap between the US and Britain seem larger than it really is"? Or will it just make Ted Koppel's head hurt?

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

vanreuter, NY NY — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:00:03 GMT

He is using post 9/11 math.
It will be funny to think six months from now, about how he was the leading candidate for the republican nomination...

Van

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Not a Lemming — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:01:08 GMT

The mysterious First Read fact check that only seems to surface on candidates other than Hillary. No doubt another fax from the Clinton machine on their direct line to First Read asking to push this story. First Read, if you are only selectively going to fact check please admit it. I don't recall any statistics being quoted as "left leaning" when they come from places like Media Matters or other covert Clinton organizations. Plus since you call Giuliani figures out of date and don’t offer something else it shows that rather than research the issue you are only pushing someone else’s propaganda. Spare us!

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Lek — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:01:55 GMT

You can only fact check Guliani, how about Hillary Clinton. Another media bias.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:06:24 GMT

bb- I'm sure Rude would tell you that, since 9/11, we have 9/11 learned that, post 9/11, there are worse things, horrible 9/11 things, than the little lies, 9/11, that are necessary to protect our babies from fiery 9/11 type deaths and that if we, 9/11, give in to Uni9/11versal health care then we are 9/11 accomplices to the painful, horrific, mind scaring, 9/11 dismemberment burnings of our innocent 9/11 children.
Boo!

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Adam Columbus OH — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:07:16 GMT

bb,

Surprisingly for Guliani, this is actually true. New or newer, experimental care for chronic illness (cancer, heart disease, etc) is very rarely done under any kind of a single payer system, but these systems do a much better job of the routine kind of care that makes up the bulk of people's medical care. This is why you will have Canadians/Europeans come to the U.S. for these types of treatments, and American's go to Canada to buy much cheaper prescription drugs. Always a trade off.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Cancer in the WH — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:08:02 GMT

Another lying repuke in a red dress. Sucking up to red states where he thinks all the stupid people there will believe his lies. Well it worked for shrub. He forgot to say in his sucking up stance that only God can cure cancer. That will cement his nomination!

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

jerry/corpus chrsti texas — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:18:12 GMT

I'm sure there would be some fact checking for Hillary Clinton if she had something that was worth fact checking about....

Other then Chinese dishwashers and money bundlers....

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

pat huntingtonny — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:20:51 GMT

Hello! This was all over the postings yesterday. Rudy was in a prostate rage! He's typical republican! Making misleading statements, lies, and Rove style statements.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

nuanced — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:21:53 GMT

Thank you for fact checking and reporting it. We need more of this on all of the politicians. Thank you again.

Just because he now knows the figures are wrong doesn't mean he won't continue to use them.

Lek & Not a Lemming, I don't think you have proof of that bias claim. That hasn't been my perception, but there has certainly been too little fact checking of all candidates and especially on the sitting president and his lackeys.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:21:57 GMT

Somebody get Tootsie and the rest of the Republicans a dictionary -- or 'plain to them what "socialism" is and what it means.

There is not plans for socialism or socialist meds in the USA. None.

Just more stupidy and BS from the GOP and it is time someone called them on it.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Mary, Illinois — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:25:39 GMT

Does Rudy point out that someone who has no health insurance has an even lower survival rate? Rudy has excellent healthcare provided by the taxpayers.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Adam Columbus OH — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:26:48 GMT

"Walsh said that when he travels to England, he sees patients frustrated with the level of national care."

Amen to that. A large number of my colleagues are former NHS doctors. Although they praise the availability and efficiency of routine type of medical procedures (break your arm, sinus infection, etc.) you do not want to be on an NHS waiting list for, say, an organ transplant or to get an MRI. When you listen to any politcian talk about health care, remember that there is always tension between cost, innovation, and availability.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Jake, Cambridge, MA — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:29:09 GMT

Kudos for the fact check, MNSBC. Please keep them up on both sides!

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Toby Hill — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:38:23 GMT

Let's take the "real" numbers, Britian 74.4 percent survival, America 99.9 percent survival. Yep, socialized medicine is better,,,,,if you want a 25% increase chance of death.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Rick, WS, NC — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:42:05 GMT

Rudy has no facts...he has fear and the easily conned will fall for it everytime

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

MK,MO — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:44:43 GMT

what would mr. guliani's chances of recovery be if he were un-insured and not wealthy in the u.s.?

having good doctors and hospitals does not do one much good if you can not access them

vote for change edwards 08

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Adam Columbus OH — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:44:47 GMT

In related news:

Shortage turns Britons into Do-It-Yourself dentists

http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSL1610030720071016

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Tuck,Realiltyville, KS — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:49:13 GMT

geez, lying about dying... oops, that's the gop way

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

A.Brocco,Albuquerque,NM — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:50:03 GMT

NAL & Lek,
Typical Conservative spin...Rudy got caught using numbers that don't make sense to a protate cancer expert, numbers that are at least 7 yrs. old and from a CONSERVATIVE quarterly magazine. That surely makes sense to rightwing nuts, but won't resonate with voters in Iowa, New Hampshire, etc. Sorry Rudy.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

vanreuter, NY NY — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:51:44 GMT

Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana

Gary-
Sorry I missed you Sunday. Sadly, we'll most likely have MORE opportunities to march against this stupid war.

Van

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

CitizenJ — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:57:57 GMT

"He is using post 9/11 math.
It will be funny to think six months from now, about how he was the leading candidate for the republican nomination..."

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Tuesday, October 30, 2007 2:00 PM)

Yet another thing we can agree on. Twice in one day; I am beginning to get a little worried.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

CitizenJ — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:15:57 GMT

"bb- I'm sure Rude would tell you that, since 9/11, we have 9/11 learned that, post 9/11, there are worse things, horrible 9/11 things, than the little lies, 9/11, that are necessary to protect our babies from fiery 9/11 type deaths and that if we, 9/11, give in to Uni9/11versal health care then we are 9/11 accomplices to the painful, horrific, mind scaring, 9/11 dismemberment burnings of our innocent 9/11 children.
Boo!"

Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana (Sent Tuesday, October 30, 2007 2:06 PM)

Haha. I actually laughed out loud at that one.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

FRedStates — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:22:35 GMT

Yes... the numbers being used by Giuliani are misleading... but any numbers used in this context will be in conflict with somebody elses numbers. So what?

Regardless... Giuliani is not a Republican... he's not a conservative and he will not win the GOP nomination... Giuliani is actually very much like Hillary when it comes to many social issues... the only big difference between the two... Giuliani actually wears womens' clothes!

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

nuanced — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:23:12 GMT

Why can't we have the best of both worlds, a national heath care system for everyone and supplemental catastrophic health insurance which those who can afford it are welcome to buy and use. This will keep the costs down for the taxpayer and provide fast "Cadillac" expensive care for those who can afford it.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Bruce, NV — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:23:37 GMT

If you folks could read you'd see that he understated the figures for the USA.

"The British government’s National Statistics Web site lists prostate cancer survival from 1999 to 2004 at 74.4 percent. The American Cancer Society says 99.9 percent of Americans survive prostate cancer."

But don't let the facts get in the way. No wonder your party can't accomplish anythng. Someone UNDERstates something, and we get the "intellectuals" on here writing their "intelligent" posts like "another repuke in a red dress" and wannabe hippies who miss the 60s looking forward to more marches. It is to laugh.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Rick, WS, NC — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:30:13 GMT

Good thing Rudy has that great health insurance or the chance he would get those life saving drugs goes down dramatically...ever notice how the ones who try and make national healthcare equal to socialized medicine don't actually pay for their own healthcare? Yessirree they are welfare cases on their employers insurance

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

MK,MO — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:32:23 GMT

vote for edwards or put up with rudy for four years.

the choice is yours

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Daniel, NY — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:33:53 GMT

It's for things like this that Giuliani loses two-to-one against Clinton in a new poll from New York: http://www.campaigndiaries.com/2007/10/morning-polls-so-much-for-giulianis.html

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

bobf — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:34:35 GMT

Toby Hill good stuff, I neeeded a good laugh. I was wondering who would be the first idiot republican to try to use these numbers for political gain. What about the 1/5 of our population that do not have health coverage. We cure 99.9 % of people that have health care coverage. Can you quote me how many americans died that had no health coverage? Another question to all republican toadies, what do we do to people that need health care but have no coverage? WHAT DO WE DO TO THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE NO HEALTH CARE COVERAGE. Lock the emergency room doors if you have no coverage. The bottom line is I do not gives a rats ass about any cancer survival rates until all americans can at least have basic health care. Quote all the damn cancer facts you want, my first question back is, what do we do with the people without health coverage? What good is all the care in the world if you can not receive it. So all you idiot republicans that use cherry picked, outdated, and tainted facts to justify what, not covering all americans. Why do you blindly support the rich. It's alright for the rich to get the best care in the world but not the poor. I really love the compassion oozing out of these compassionate conservatives.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Jay Petty Elgin Az. — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:38:25 GMT

Did'nt Rudy get health insurance through the government of New York City for his treatment?

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Norman Marcus — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:40:31 GMT

If Socialized Medicine or some form of goverment managed health care is so bad, why haven't these democratic countries adopted our wonderful system?All of Western Europe considers health care a right of their citizens,yet we run it as medicine for profit.You are not talking about shopping for a car here, you are talking about peoples' lives!Rudy twists the numbers to scare the public.Maybe he is a real republican.The politics of fear is their forte. I trust the government more then the health insurance companies.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Blue state baby — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:49:53 GMT

Rudy the lying rat might have an 82% chance, with his excellent health care plan, but a person without health care sure don't have that good a chance.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Adam Columbus OH — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:51:38 GMT

My $0.02 on how to fix health care in this country, in order. Something to offend everyone!

1. Computerized medical records. A large portion of medical costs come from duplicate procedures. A nationwide, computerized database of patient's medical records could cut down on this. Obama, Clinton, and Edward have all rightly spoken about this as a way of controlling costs.

2. Don't pay for medical mistakes or per-procedure. Insurance should pay for a course of treatment in its totality, not every band-aid used. Sen. McCain spoke about this.

3. Caps on malpractice lawsuit payouts. More and more doctors are closing up shop because they simply can't pay the malpractice insurance premiums. Tort reform that caps the amount malpractice attorneys can make from any settlement.

4. Subsidized medical school/nursing school tuition. When every doctor comes out of medical school $250,000 in debt, they have a pressing incentive to (over)charge for basic procedures and perform unneccessary procedures.

5. Risk pricing. If you smoke, drink to excess, eat poorly, you are driving up everyone's costs, and should pay more.

6. Means testing Medicare. A non-trivial number of people can pay for there own medical insurance. This should include retirees.

7. Risk pooling: Both your employer and you (if you can afford it, see #6) should pay into a national risk pool.

8. Preventitive care: Stop smoking programs, weight management programs, nutritionists, etc. Will bring down costs over the long term.

9. Medical tourism. Some procedures can simply be done more cheaply overseas. If we can fly someone to India (very good doctors) more cost-effectively than we can do it here, let's do it.

10. Allow anyone to enroll in Medicare on a means-tested basis.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Gary Schear, Bozeman Montana — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:55:25 GMT

vanreuter, NY NY
We'll be back. It was quite a crowd. Quite a wet crowd. We got there pretty early and were toward the front. About midway we got on the side walk and watched the parade thinking you might walk by and see us. It was good to see blocks and blocks of people walk by and see them stretch as far as the eye could see down Broadway.
Did you see the guy with the big foam chicken that looked like Bush? I told him he wasn't being fair...
to chickens.
Next time, man.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:57:40 GMT

Holy crap! I didnt know Rudy had a prostate, thought he was a woman.....

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Dave, Tn — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:58:20 GMT

Could the 44.3 percent in England be the poor bastards under the national health care that can't afford to seek private care? Maybe a little fact check?

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

S.B Stein E.B. NJ — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:58:53 GMT

I would like to see all the candidates statements checked. It would make sense to see if all of their statement were verified so all could see who made the least mistakes. If they were spinning the numbers, that should be put in there as well. I don't care which candidate it is; if they make a statement based on incorrect or misconstruded facts, nail them on it. If I were to run for office (or be in office), it would hurt for a bit to be correct. If it corrects wrong beliefs or bad policy, then it is for the best most times.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

John B, Des Moines, IA — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:58:54 GMT

Nuanced, great suggestion and I believe that's exactly what we'll end up with once the insurance companies strangle the Golden Goose, sit down to a nice goose dinner, and bed down under a goose down comforter. Congratulations conservatives, you found one statistic where the United States is somewhat better than some other countries. Overall we're still the 37th best health care system and still pay one third more than the next most expensive system. And Giuliani exaggerating and misleading to make his point? Business as usual for Rude E.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Adam Prussin, New York, N.Y. — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:03:43 GMT

I recall reading reports of a recent study showing that the British are, on average, in far better health overall than Americans. What does that tell us about the relative merits of the two systems? About as much as Giuliani's cherry-picked slice of information.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

MK,MO — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:06:40 GMT

"The British government’s National Statistics Web site lists prostate cancer survival from 1999 to 2004 at 74.4 percent. The American Cancer Society says 99.9 percent of Americans survive prostate cancer."

your 99.9% is bogus, none the less what is the percentage of americans that survive prostate cancer who can't afford the treatment? this is the number of importance chiefy. 99.9% dead most likely. but I suppose that is acceptable since they were not born with a silver spoon in their mouth?

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Stacy S. Medford OR — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:08:33 GMT

And your qualifications for being elected President of the United States: 0

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Amy B Portland, Me — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:14:05 GMT

nuanced, you continue to amaze me with your ability to see the nuances. Why can't American politics be as nuanced?

"Why can't we have the best of both worlds, a national heath care system for everyone and supplemental catastrophic health insurance which those who can afford it are welcome to buy and use." Makes too much sense.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Greg R., Spokane, WA — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:19:34 GMT

Here's perspective:

The entire U.K. is no bigger than the state of Idaho

They eat differently.....Do they even have a overwhelming problem w/prostrate cancer (like the USA) or do they have to search for stats?

If you're even moved by this article you haven't thought it through!

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Barbara C.. Pompano Beach, FL — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:21:35 GMT

Giuliani is on Hillary regarding Healthcare because even he knows --- IT'S TIME TO CHANGE OUR HEALTHCARE in this country. On healthcare, the GOP should see this issue in the same light that I do....by having a national system, and no longer listing people on their credit report for "getting sick", and not being able to pay....this can only help the economy. Think of the houses you can buy and the cars you can lease once your credit report is FREE of old medical bills.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Ricardo in California — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:25:53 GMT

I thought Bush was ignorant. Giuliani brings it to a whole new level. Please no more republicans....

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

be straight with the facts — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:35:32 GMT

Did'nt Rudy get health insurance through the government of New York City for his treatment?

ABSOLUTELY!! - he was Mayor at the time
What a hypocrite. No way did he use his own money - unlike Bloomberg, who won't even live in Gracie Mansion or take a dime in salary from NY, cause he's rich enough not to live off taxpayers. While Rudy's not in Mike's class (in ANY way), he certainly has enough to pay his own way, but surely did not while Mayor. You almost couldn't get him out when his term was up!
I like the people who also quote "statistics" that the US survival rate isn't exactly something to brag about for THE 45 MILLION UNINSURED - of which Britain HAS NONE!

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Adam Columbus OH — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:36:59 GMT

Forgot a few:

11. Reduced or no co-pays for yearly checkups/physicals. Any ailment you might possibly have is cheaper when detected earlier.

12. Walk in clinics: There is absolutely no reason why a qualified LPN or RN can't capably perform a host of procedures currently only we doctors are allowed to do, and for much less.

Adam Prussin, New York, N.Y.

"I recall reading reports of a recent study showing that the British are, on average, in far better health overall than Americans. What does that tell us about the relative merits of the two systems?"

Not very much actually. You'll find the same discrepency between the US and almost any EU country. In Europe, people tend to live much closer to work, shopping, school, etc, and simply walk to these places more, and get more exercise, thus they are healthier even though Europeans tend to smoke **much** more than Americans. I don't know if you've ever been to the UK, but the average refridgerator is very small in comparison to what you will find in the US. People will shop for food more frequently, and thus purchase more fresh ingredients and more in-season produce and meats, rather than in the US where everything is packaged in plastic, irradiated, and covered in pesticides. That stat is more reflective of simple zoning issues (local grocers in the EU vs. big-box grocery stores in the US.) than anything indicitive about the health system per se.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Jim B., Towanda, PA — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:40:53 GMT

So the whole purpose of this story is to prove you're only 25% more likely to die in Britain instead of 50%; and that anything other than routine care in Britian sucks. That said I believe the original jest of the argument is correct. So why didn't First Read just say that rather than imply the overall argument was false. Hummm ... I guess that wasn't in the Hillary approved fax.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

grateful voter — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:42:15 GMT

Adam Columbus OH - YOU should run for president!

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Beth, Los Angeles, Ca — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:42:30 GMT

Rudy, what's your chance at survival if you have NO insurance? I'll tell you, it's ZERO percent. I have terminal cancer myself. Even WITH insurance I have trouble getting treatment under Blue Cross HMO.
Survival isn't an option at all for 47 million uninsured Americans. Here are the grim facts you rich people don't get. You get sick, sick enough and you can't work, then you lose your insurance, you get NO MEDICAL TREATMENT. It's that simple.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

John S. Alexander, Edinboro, PA — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:42:44 GMT

Rudy is now an intellectual thinker but reading only one side of the argument is not very intellectual at all. You must look at both sides and then come up with your own ideas. That is what college teaches most people. Rudy was not looking for facts, he was looking for arguments, one is not the other. Like I said he will implode as the days go on. At least Romney is too smart to use suspect information but would you buy a used car from him? Too slick for me. It is too bad he is a morman that will defeat him in the long run. Fred is Fred and will pretend to be a good ole boy, tired of that already. Huckabee will rise in peoples eyes as these others self destruct. The dems have warts also but they are not tied to the Bushes White House no matter what people suggest. This is really becoming a most interesting election. I can't wait to see who is still running when Pennsylvania gets to vote.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Andy — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:14:14 GMT

I'm interested in knowing how someone could believe anything this guy says? He can't remember what values he had yesterday, let alone pre and post 9/11. Just save yourself the embarassment and drop out of the race now Rudy.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Bruce, NV — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:30:17 GMT

Actually, if you have no insurance, the taxpayers will cover you, it's a strawman.

Y'all need to get better talking points.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Mike T. , Salt Lake City, UT — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:32:08 GMT

This is a prime example of someone (Rudy) misusing data to prove a point that has nothing to do with the issue. Having had prostate cancer and doing some basic research on the subject, one of the first things you learn is that Europeans generally have not followed the U.S. lead in getting PSA blood test screenings. They generally don't want to know, apparently because if you do know then you are faced with choosing alternatives such as radical prostate surgery or radiation, both of which are likely to result in male impotence. The death rates are higher because of the cultural differences in males in the two continents - and the apparently greater willingness by U.S. males to sacrifice one's sex life for one's life. It has nothing to do with nationalized health plans.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Bruce, NV — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:39:14 GMT

Meanwhile the wait time to see a doctor in the UK is so bad that they have websites to show how long the wait is....GP ? 17 weeks.

CURRENT WAITING TIMES IN ENGLAND AND SCOTLAND
8 months for cataract surgery
11 months for a hip replacement
12 months for a knee replacement
5 months to repair a slipped disc
5 months for a hernia repair

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Beth, Los Angeles, Ca — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:12:44 GMT

Gee Bruce, let me know where the taxpayers will cover those without insurance. Isn't this what the Bush Republicans just defeated for the kids? Isn't that what you are all afraid of with Universal Health care? That all Americans might actually GET health care? Then you say the taxpayers will cover it all? Ah...when did that law pass? Some people confuse being able to go to the emergency room with real health care. You have something like cancer, they don't treat that week to week in the emergency room. Instead you are denied treatment until it's so bad you end up in the emergency room. Then they shoot you up and kick you to the curb. If you don't work, you don't get insurance, no insurance = no treatment. No treatment...you die in America.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Lee Holmes — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:15:34 GMT

Hillary in fact,did screw up in the numbers department,and as it happened,it was cancer that was the subject. Appearing before the Lance Armstrong Forum, in late August,making her arguments about healthcare reform,she stated that ''500,000''women a year worldwide die of cervical cancer. The actual number is half this. This does not make her a ''liar'' or ''ignorant''.It makes her misinformed.

www.factcheck.org

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Beth, Los Angeles, Ca — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:18:29 GMT

Gee Bruce, how long do you wait in the Unites States when you have NO insurance? I spent the summer in Canada, they are very happy with their health care and there isn't any kicking to the curb there like we do in America. I have insurance, I waited FOUR MONTHS for an oncologist to see me after I was diagnosed with TERMINAL CANCER. You know why? Because Blue Cross tried to dump me after I had paid for them for years. Instead of me dealing with just being told I was going to die, I got to fight with Blue Cross for FOUR MONTHS, in pain, in fear and WITHOUT health care in America. That's WITH insurance!

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Len Brently, Boston MA — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:01:27 GMT

Overall we're still the 37th best health care system and still pay one third more than the next most expensive system. And Giuliani exaggerating and misleading to make his point? Business as usual for Rude E.

Here's another example of a liberal giving a conservative a hard time about where he gets his numbers (Rudy in this case), and then bringing up the bogus "we're 37th" argument. That was a WTO study that is as politically slanted as any other "study" that is out there. Face facts, Americans have the best health care, research, and access then anyone in the world. And Hillary et. al. want to destroy it.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Dan, Baltimore, MD — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:16:13 GMT

Way to distort, MSNBC! Could your political leanings be more obvious? The Giuliani campaign cited a reputable journal who in turn cited research reports from the time when Rudy had cancer. What more do you want? The prostate cancer causes a weakened body which leads to death by pneumonia. Those should count too because the cancer causes the precursor to the death. I'm not a medical doctor and it's pretty obvious to me, Nice try.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Jane, Dublin, Ireland — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:20:12 GMT

We have "socialized medicine" in Ireland. I see my GP on the same day that I make a phone call for an appointment. I rang on a Friday, saw my GP was referred to a specialist and by Monday evening had been seen by an orthopaedic consultant. I had a minor soft tissue injury. Believe whatever you like but until you've actually tried the health care systems in other countries you'll never really know. I'd rather know that no matter what happens (for richer, poorer, better or worse) my health will always be taken care of. Now thats' peace of mind. A family member became seriously ill in Canada. The health care system there is amazing. Call it what you like. It's still fairer for all to be entitled to treatment when sick.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

GT, Milwaukee, WI — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:33:53 GMT

"Meanwhile the wait time to see a doctor in the UK is so bad that they have websites to show how long the wait is....GP ? 17 weeks."

I just realized my doctor is booked for about two and a half months, a wait time of about 10 weeks. Not as bad, but it's not as though we're comparing 17 weeks to 24 hours or something.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

michael, colorado springs, co — Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:48:31 GMT

What is the difference between 'socialized medicine' and the health care that our elected politicians receive?

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Rick, WS, NC — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:20:35 GMT

Beth, the bushies don't care about you or anyone else...anyone who thinks the current system of distributing healthcare is great is getting subsidized insurance from their employer or the government and think that every one should "pay" for their healthcare just like they do...

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Beth, Los Angeles, Ca — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:36:02 GMT

Lee, the facts on cervical cancer are about 500,000 come down with cervical cancer and your number is indeed those who actually die from it. Either way ,it's a large number and point made by Hillary.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Beth, Los Angeles, Ca — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:57:32 GMT

Len, nobody wants to destroy our health care in America. The point is simply this, if you don't have insurance you don't get to receive health care. Having worked for the insurance company for the past 7 years, I can tell you from the inside....they are there for profits not CARE and they make a LOT of profit. Once you get sick, it's a game to deny the treatment because of money. This happens even to those WITH insurance, see my other posts about my own nightmare with Blue Cross. Until you go through this nightmare of insurance you don't understand that what you are trusting is going to be ok, isn't. When your turn comes, the light comes on. Nobody with this knowledge wants anything more than to stop insurance companies from dumping those who get sick and that health care be available to all Americans. The insurance companies pay a lot of money to keep YOU in the dark. I found out the hard way, I hope what happened to me does not happen to you or anyone else who simply doesn't know the real truth of insurance denials once you get sick.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Griz Granite Shoals Tx — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 03:24:42 GMT

I had a great job excellent benefits. Didn't do me any good when I got too sick to work. Another thing most people don't know is that when you apply for ssdi if you can't see a doctor regularly for the 5 or so years it takes to get approved you aren't going to get approved. Where is this money supposed to come from when you are out of work and your insurance is gone. I take great comfort in knowing that some of you 'silver spoons' are going to experience this very thing someday. Then we'll see what tune you are singing.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

cxb — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 03:30:04 GMT

IRONY ALERT: Giuliani HIMSELF has admitted to being more SOCIALIST than any Democrat.

EX: Rudy praises the communistic model for the NYPD, the FDNY, and the US Military. (I don't. Since the NYPD admits, say, that they fail to solve 80% of reported crime, I should be able to fire the police commissioner and his useless team.)

EX: Rudy has stated boldly that he loves our communistic design of govt here in the USA. EX: he thinks that we should continue this badly planned "temporary dictatorship" where we elect someone to ignore our wishes for four to 8 years, and to waste our taxdollars however they feel like.

It's akin to everyone in your town "voting" for ONE pizza place to exist and that you must eat at only that ONE pizza place for the next four years.

This is called "totalitarianism", and it is the foundation of our crappy system.

But don't take my word for it: ask Rudy if he plans more "free market" ideals for the White House. B/c even most private phone plans don't force you into a FOUR year contract!

Republicans are even more hypocritical than Democrats.

But we must reject BOTH parties.

(I always vote 3rd party and always will.)

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

cxb — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 03:32:00 GMT

Our health care system is a disaster, and I gladly welcome any dumb Republicans (same people who say they believe in a virgin birth! sheesh!) to come with me to the hospital next week!

Do REpublicans ever not lie?

Conservatives also insisted the earth was flat and the center of the universe.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Chris, Wash. — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:51:38 GMT

Let's take the "real" numbers, Britian 74.4 percent survival, America 99.9 percent survival. Yep, socialized medicine is better,,,,,if you want a 25% increase chance of death.

Toby, clearly you have no concept of "mortality and survivability" rates. But, I would expect nothing less from somone who enjoys the state of the current system. I find it ironic that when the numbers are against your party, the old addage "anyone can make-up statistics" is thrown around alot. But when the your exaulted party uses them it's, "look at the numbers" or "these statistics don't lie".

First, grab a dictonary and expose yourself to some scientific terms...hope that doesn't offend or scare the party of God.

Secondly, if you or your party have a better idea, put up for all Americans to read...I SAID READ, not listen to. This goes for both parties, fix the current system, I don't think so, we better work to update the system first and then we might possibly move on.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

thomas billis las vegas nv — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:31:11 GMT

Do you know I had to look and look to find out that the numbers were misleading.They did not sound right to me .Where was this on the major news outlets.You do not think it is a big deal.We have a major crisis in health care in this country.To let Giuliani go out and make ,giving him the best of it,misleading statememts does not help the debate.The fourth estate can do better.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

anthony — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:31:31 GMT

It seems many liberals are simply afraid of Rudy's electability which is indicative of these assine attacks. Give the guy some credit, he battled and defeated cancer. There is nothing this man cannot handle. He survived the mafia putting an $800,000 bounty on his head because he put many of them in jail. The man is fearless!

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

John B, Des Moines, IA — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:44:50 GMT

Len, if you think we have the best health care in the world why do we rank in the bottom half of all industrialized countries in almost every objective measure from infant mortality to average life expectancy? THAT is what determined the 37th best health care statistic. If you wish to consider infant mortality to be a political issue by all means do so. You're on the losing side of that one.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Toby Hill — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:29:23 GMT

BOBF, You're not real bright, are you? The survival rate had nothing to do with who has insurance even though everyone in the UK has health care which makes it even worse for them because they do all have it. The point this whole blog makes is that the US quality of health surpasses the UK in every scenerio presented. Even the homeless on our streets get healthcare and live beyond the ones under UK's socialized medicine.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

John B, Des Moines, IA — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:27:33 GMT

Toby we're 38th in life expectancy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy and nearly all of the countries where people live longer have national health plans. Next lie, please.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Samwise Galenorn, Bellevue, Washington — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 20:51:27 GMT

If someone doesn't have access to a doctor, then how would that person be diagnosised with prostate cancer?
In England, where far more people have access to a doctor, more people are diagnosised, therefore they have a higher rate of mortality due to the disease, where in America, if it isn't diagnosised, then it won't be counted, and America will win the flawed statistic war.

Cancer happens to all people, not exclusively to those with health insurance.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Jules G., Washington DC — Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:57:22 GMT

Your 99.9% survival rate in the US is incorrect. Specifically, the five year survival rate for LOCALISED prostate cancer is 99%. The survival rate thereafter (10 and 15 years are the standard benchmarks) is in the 85 percent range. Survival rates depend on: (1) early detection followed by prompt treatment, (2) type of treatment (prostate removal has the highest survival rate, according to Johns Hopkins, the US's leading urology department), and (3) age of patient at detection, since older men typically die of something else before they die of PC, whereas for younger men diagnosed with PC the likelihood of their dying from PC is greater than for older men, since they are less likely to die of old age before PC becomes life threatening. All this said, does anyone know when Johns Hopkins is going to complete their trial of EPCA-2 -- it could level the playing field between the US and UK on providing easy and definitive detection of PC compared with the less reliable PSA detection method?

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Jannie, Winsted, CT — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 02:27:05 GMT

Gary Shear - Thank 9/11 you for that very9/11 insitefu9/11l comment. 9/11 9/11 9/11!

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Andy Saxon, Sheffield, UK — Thu, 01 Nov 2007 18:47:44 GMT

WHAT IS THE USA SURVIVAL RATE FOR THOSE PEOPLE THAT ARE DENIED HEALTHCARE DUE TO BEING TOO POOR TO HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE?

82%? I think not...

So do the USA figures include the whole population?

The UK's healthcare system is open to absolutely everyone so our figures include EVERYONE in the UK.

NOT JUST THOSE THAT HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE.

Get it?

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

jacksmith — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:34:16 GMT

The bottom line is that the British live longer than we do in America. And the average Briton was found to be in much better health than the best insured Americans. Sad... And British children are not dieing, and going extinct. Like all of the American children are. What do you have to say to that. Wise Guys.

For the first time in the history of America. The life expectancy of today's children is less than that of their parents. This is catastrophic. And our infant mortality is equal to that of a third world country. Current U.S. adult life expectancy is down from #1 to #42. And dropping fast. These facts are what is known as EXTINCTION! indicators. These are the early signs of the final phase of the EXTINCTION of the American people.

You have to take the profit motive out of health care delivery. The profit motive does not work with health care. Or any other essential public service like police, and fire. The sooner everyone faces this truth. The sooner you will be able to adopt a real solution to the problem. The days of paying for health care out of pocket are at an end. Just like the mob days of paying for protection out of pocket came to an end.

HR 676 is the way to go. Single payer Universal National Health Care For All. Medicare for all. Accept no substitutes. The sooner you face this. The sooner you begin to heal the Cancer of private for profit medicine that is destroying this entire society. Other developed countries realized this years ago. It's a no-brainer now. See sickocure.org

Money, greed, and the profit motive has just decimated health care in America. And killed, and injured millions needlessly. Just for profit. But that is what large amounts of money, greed, and a lust for power always does. No one is immune from this corrupting power. The smart ones know this. And avoid letting them-self be put in compromising positions. But that is easier said. Than done. And very few succeed.

Most in the US go into medicine primarily to become wealthy. That is who the medical schools mostly choose. Most of the medical schools faculty are in bed with the drug companies, and others. And like the story of Dr. Faustus. They end up selling their soles. One compromise at a time. Until Lucifer owns them.

In medicine. Compromised care means. Injury, disability, and death. It's sad really. But HR 676 can fix this disgrace. Like it has in other developed countries. The only question is. How many more millions will be hurt, injured, and killed. And how many more of your children will die before their time. Before we fix this disgrace of private for profit health care in America.

I realize there will be a few people that have what they believe is good health care coverage. Who will want to opt out of a single payer system like HR 676. But let me remind you we rank # 37 in quality of health care for all. Down from #1. Never the less. A few opting out is not a problem. As long as all other Americans are automatically covered at birth through life. Unless they choose to opt out of HR 676. The government takes out 1.4% from your paycheck now for Medicare. All they have to do is substitute for HR 676 what they now take out of your paychecks for private health insurance. Remember, we already spend more on health care than any other country in the world. Right Now. We are being ripped off. And raped.

The SCHIP program is a desperately needed program for Americas children. But with the impending EXTINCTION of Americas children. And their current catastrophic health care condition. SCHIP needs to be extended to cover all of Americas children, immediately. Parents should have no hesitations, or financial worries about seeking medical care for their children. Whenever they have any concerns about their children's health. Especially in the richest country in the world. I would submit that any President, or politician that fails to do this for the children. Betrays their most solemn oath to protect the American people. Especially when you consider that all other developed countries have done this. And that we are the richest country in the world.

So get on it America. Get it done. You have been doing great over the past several months. Keep it up. And step it up. You have to force it, and take it. It's the right fight, and the right thing to do. Now is the time... Take no prisoners.

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Winston Smith — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 12:57:54 GMT

Fact-checking Rudy's cancer numbers

Winston Smith — Fri, 02 Nov 2007 13:06:15 GMT