http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx From Elizabeth Wilner, Mark Murray, Huma Zaidi, Lauren Appelbaum, and Carrie DannPolitics abhors a vacuum, and the delay in the debate over the resolutions opposing a US troop increase in Iraq is giving some of the bigger participants time to jockeyen-USCommunityServer 2.0 (Build: 60608.1)http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#45930Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:13:34 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:45930mikeeg,abdn,wabipartisan, bipartisan ya know ive heard that word and I know what the definition is but I dont think I have seen it put into practice lately http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#45971Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:41:54 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:45971Lynette, NYCThe bush administration is slipping. They forgot (!) to throw Mc CAin a few crumbs to keep him in their camp. Shame on Condoleeza......SHAME ON THEM ALL http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46027Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:18:41 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46027Robert Catalano, Salem, ORDoes anybody remember Michael Moore's speech at the Oscars when he said "Shame on you Mr. President?" Do you think he would be booed if he said those words today? On this country, at this time, bipartisan means the Congress works together to accomplish something and Bish does what he wants to do anyway.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46052Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:30:10 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46052kenlooking at congress as a single entity, one is struck by the resemblance between its collective actions and those of an individual with moderate mental disability. after four years they're still looking for "more information". LOLhttp://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46086Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:45:43 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46086Bob./Lipsett Sr, North Attleboro, MA. 02760-4388Would you tell me just how in the "Hell" do I get to publish a statement on First Read. I've read and answered most of your articles and have been left out of the discussions. Could it be I'm too Liberal for your news replys???????????/http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46131Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:19:52 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46131Darren Pope, SCThe word bipartisan in the same sentence as Harry Reid, and Nancy Pelosi? Be serious. This WAS suggested by Lieberman and Collins last year but democrats didn't seem to want anything to do with it then. It's only a good idea if it's their idea. Obama's call for a definite date for withdrawal of American troops is as ludicrous as those made before his. You can't announce to the enemy when you will withdraw. At the same time Lieberman and Collins were calling for bipartisan discussions many prominent dems, including Joe Biden, were calling for MORE troops to be sent to Iraq, saying we didn't have enough there to do the job. The dems are consistent in only one thing, inconsistency. Whatever the other side of the aisle calls for is wrong and they are right. Do any of them have any core values or nmoral compass to lead them? Seemingly not. How can anyone who pays any attention to these guys put any faith whatsoever in anything they say or do?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46143Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:27:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46143John B, Des Moines, IADon't be fooled by statements about a strong economy. I work in Transportation, one of the first industries to go in the tank when things turn down. Right now talk in the industry is all about lower Q4 earnings compared to 2005 and a severe lack of product being moved. Just watch, 30-60 days from now Economists will be talking about how fast the bottom dropped out of the recovery.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46156Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:39:51 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46156Carrie, NW IowaInconsistency? If you gave me a choice between someone who adjusts their position and policy based on the actual circumstances versus someone who steadfastly clings to their original stance, despite evidence that such a stance is seriously flawed, I will take the former any day of the week. The situation in Iraq is extremely complex, as is evident by the number of resolutions that are popping up attempting to address what should be done going forward. It's no wonder that people change their minds as more information becomes available, and as circumstances change. That's being responsible. Screaming at the top of your lungs about how you are right and you are the "decider" is not being responsible; that's behaving like a spoiled child. I despise the whole flip-flopping charge because it is, quite frankly, stupid. People change their minds about a hundred things every day. Just this morning I changed my mind 3 times about which shoes to wear. Oh my God! I'm a fashion flip flopper! I guess I will never make it to Congress now. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46160Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:41:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46160Ryan, MichiganJohn - I'm not sure what you're referring to when you state "fast the bottom dropped out of the recovery." The recovery has been happening since the second half of '02. You are probably right that earnings will start to slow down. After 18 quarters of double digit growth that is bound to happen. I also agree that after a pretty good Q1 GDP number, Q2 and maybe even Q3 will be lower but nowhere near recessionary. Two or three month accelerations are normal during a mid cylcle slowdown that we are in now. 1985 and 1995 were both midcycle slowdown years that had blips of acceleration in them followed by slower yet steady growth.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46165Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:44:19 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46165Steve Turner Cedar Falls Iowa"Bipartisan" in this Administration, actually menas "Bipolar".http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46169Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:45:54 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46169Seattle SueDarren Pope==We have not heard from you in a while,thought perhaps you were dead. Glad to see you back. Do you find it amazing how many Republicans are speaking the word (bipartisan) since 11/07/06? That word didn't seem to be in thier vocabulary until then.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46179Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:49:15 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46179Ricardo in California Darren...Darren ....Darren ... I read your post and the infamous line "People who live in glass houses should not be throwing stones" Your thoughts about Democrats and inconsistencies, lack of core values, morales, and blah blah blah .... very accurately describes the republicans in Washington. Why do you think the losers lost in November of 2006?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46184Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:52:29 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46184Mark YokomizoDarren, If you want consistency, look at OUR president: Against the 9-11 Commssion before he was for it; against nation building before he was for it; supports out troops in speeches while cutting veterans' benefits...need I go on? If I recall, Biden wanted more troops when the general discussion was, "do we have enough troops?" Last year, the Dems were not the majority, so how could they tour "bipartisan" when the Repub congress stifled their every move. Reid and Pelosi have shown more effort (whether sincere or not) at being bipartisan than the Repubs. On the withdrawal date issue, it is a tough one since it would require the Iraqis to "stand up" so that OUR troops can come home. A definitive date puts the Iraqis on notice; however, notifying the enemy in advance is bad strategy. Are you able to see both sides of an issue? Your post certainly have never shown that. BTW, I am a registered independent. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46186Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:54:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46186Larry LRobert Michael Moore wouldn't be booded today because we now know what's going on. He was one of the first of the now billions of outspoken critics against Stupid George. I don't invest in corporations just like him because all they care about is getting richer. I hope he does another documentry on how Bush is setting himself up to be the dictator of America. I hate stupid george! http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46195Wed, 31 Jan 2007 16:58:18 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46195Paw Paw, NCVote on a "Nonbinding Resolution" give us all a break you are either for or against! None of our elected politicians seem to realize that while they are debating this whole mess lives are still being lost and billions being spent to no end. All I want to see from our "Chicken Sh-- politicians is a vote either yes the troops stay or no pull the troops out "NOW". If you vote to keep the troops there, then declare this a "war" against Iraq (not insurgents or terrorist) and send in enough troops (500,000) and eliminate their so called elected government and anyone else who gives any resistance set up military rule. If you vote to pull the troops out then pull them out "NOW" not in six months, or next year, or five years, or ten years "NOW". Literally you are either in this mess up to your eyeballs or you want an end to it, but most of our gifted, talented, and supposedly best want to straddle the fence with such statements as "I support our troops but I'm against this war", "If I knew then what I know now I would have voted against sending troops", "We should have sent in more troops and things would have been different", "I'll vote to keep funding our beloved Iraq and Afghan conflicts but we don't need to send 21,500 more troops". http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46300Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:48:13 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46300Darren Pope, SCA choice between which shoes to wear is a little less important than how many troops are needed in war where people lose their lives. On what evidence did Biden and other dems base their flip-flop from more troops to against more troops in less than a month? Sue, thought I was dead? Yikes. No, sadly for the left the truth is still alive and well.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46321Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:02:05 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46321Carrie, NW IowaDarren - Lighten up, man. Seriously. The point is the same. People change their minds about all sorts of things from the most mundane (what to wear) to the most important (whether to get married, have children, go to college, etc.). These are reasonable, mature, thoughtful, intelligent people. Just so you don't miss it again, the point is that changing your mind as new information becomes available is not being inconsistent so much as it is adapting to changing circumstances. That is never something to scoff at or ridicule in my opinion. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46335Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:08:47 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46335Ay Jay, TXThe current march to defeat and disgrace has me astounded. What good could come of it? Why don't our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines deserve reinforcements? Do you really want to hang them out on a limb with the status quo? Why doesn't their newly appointed commander, who engineered the strategy and asked for the troops get the support of the American people? Is it that so many are psychologically or politically invested in American defeat? Rue the day it may happen, because little good will come of it, and much bad. I think that it is clear the big effort to force withdrawl is primarily political gamesmanship, and doesn't take seriously into account either national security, or the fate of our military. Surely the Democrats don't want to inherit this problem if they win the presidency in '08, and it is a wonderful political stick with which to beat the republicans the longer it can be drug out, neither won, nor lost. What a shame it comes to that, all for power in playing politics. This libertarian is sure he's in for a bashing from such the left leaning readership that MSNBC gets, but I call it like I see it, and so far the "peace movement" has been anything but convicing that reason and rationality are their guiding stars.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46362Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:28:08 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46362Paw Paw, NCThis is from a recent AP article and I still believe that Congress passed a law after Vietnam "that after the President sent troops into a conflict Congress had a given period of time to either declare it a war or withdraw all troops" to prevent it from ever happening again. In recent decades, presidents have routinely bypassed Congress when deploying troops to fight. Not since World War II has Congress issued an official declaration of war, despite lengthy wars fought in Vietnam and Korea. Congress does not have to approve military maneuvers. John Yoo, who as a Justice Department lawyer helped write the 2002 resolution authorizing the Iraq invasion, called that document a political one designed only to bring Democrats on board and spread accountability for the conflict. The resolution passed by a 296-133 vote in the then-GOP-run House and 77-23 in the Democratic-led Senate, but it was not considered a declaration of war. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46369Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:32:50 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46369Darren Pope, SCAgain, Carrie, I ask, what new information came was made available to cause Biden and other dems to change their stance that we needed more troops in Iraq to no new troops in under a month? There was no new information other than Bush began calling for more troops. The call for more troops was based on advice he was given by some military leaders. The same military leaders Biden and his ilk accused Bush of ignoring as late as December of last year. If new information becomes available that suggests I should change my mind on any given subject of course I take that info seriously. That was clearly NOT the case with Biden, et al. It was simple political expediency.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46388Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:43:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46388Jim, Santa CruzThe fact remains, Bush and Co. started this war, it's now a mess and there is no present plan to end it rationally. The United Nations is a logical choice as a forum to discuss and act on the Iraq and broader Middle East problems, but the Bush Administration has done much to taint the credibility of the UN. And the right wingers out there will spew much negative rhetoric and cite their petty gripes about the UN, but it is the best chance the world has to avoid a major disaster in the region. A successful plan on Iraq should transition into a control of the entire Mideast region by the UN, with a major international force that has the will and ability to engage violent offenders on all sides of the conflict.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46391Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:45:18 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46391Peter Alaimo, Phoenix, AZOur government is disfunctional simply because the overwhelming majority of the public doesn't want to hear the truth and would turn out of office anyone who told it. Imagine a politcian daring to say, "We fight oil wars because Americans are energy pigs and demand to live in SUV-McMansion-Sprawl land on cheap gas. Only real cities and real mass transit and real conservation can save us from ourselves", or "Social Security can only be saved and universal health care can only happen, once we dedicate the tax revenues necessary to those programs and that means higher taxes for all, but especially for the rich." If our politicians are disfunctional it is simply because we are disfunctional. We refuse to hear the truth, and then accuse the politicians of duplicity.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46392Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:46:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46392ex-marine,vietvetI did not realize our troops were hanging out there on a limb(per Ay Jay,tx), if they are lets get reinforcements there asap, those who put them out on that limb need to be held accountable.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46393Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:46:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46393MK, MOAy Jay it's a civil war between religous factions who have never and will never get along. How you going to make them get along if they don't want to? Just because we used to have a democracy in this country why does anyone think the rest of the world wants one? We are trying to make them like us, they are not and don't want to be. Nothing good will come from us being in Iraq. The only way to win in Iraq is to kill everyone over there, as long as they contnue to breath they will continue to fight. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46397Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:50:43 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46397Larry LDarren-No, sadly for the left the truth is still alive and well. No it's not sad for us it's sad for us all you won't be so supportive of this administration when it's Emperor Bush. You will see they already control everything only a matter of time before Stupid George rules America as a dictator. Everything points to this happening open your eyes. What you don't also get Darren is the Iraqi's don't even want us over there how else do you explain their failure to be up and running. You can't can you. And that's just the way Bush wants it so he can keep feeding his oil buddies money then he can take over the U.S. and who will stop him you? You need to take a hard look at your President he's not mine becuase I didn't vote for him. A withdraw is the only way we can cut off Bush's money buddies and his money. Once we leave everything will go back to normal and we'll be safer because of it.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46403Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:54:17 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46403Darren Pope, SCJim, how do you plan to end a war? When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor did we come up with an "exit strategy" and a date for withdrawal before we responded? War is a series of chaotic events that hopefully end up in a desired result, victory over your enemy. Only then do you decide on an exit strategy or a date to pull out. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46406Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:55:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46406Rufus Gibbons, Kennett, Mo.Ay Jay, one reason people have turned against the war is because the war was sold to the American people as a "Piece of cake" Wolfowitz said that it wouldn"t cost one thin dime, Rumsfeld said it would be measured in weeks not months and the fearmonger said we would be greeted as liberators. Before the war started Cheney said that anybody who wakes up each morning eager to go to war would have to be crazy. He was right but i'm not sure that being crazy is an impeachable offense.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46408Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:56:30 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46408John Doe, The Peanut GalleryI'm sorry but to hear people cry flip-flop regarding people who wanted more troops now apposing this "surge" is just rediculous. 1) If you actually think that introducing 21,000 (less than that actually as some of those troops will be going to Anbar province) troops into a city with a population of several million is going to go any significant distance towards pacifying Iraq, I have bridge I'd like to sell you. Cash only and in non sequential small denominations please. The Dems who wanted more troops wanted several orders of magnitude more than 21,000 and they appose the "surge" because an increase of 10% into the middle of a full blown civil war won't do anything except get more of our troops killed. 2) This strategy is not new (we have "surged" four times previously) it has proven to be ineffective in the past, and I see absolutely no reason to assume that it will work now. The GOP broke Iraq. They now have a choice of admitting their mistake and ending the conflict or getting pasted in the next election cycle as well.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46424Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:04:34 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46424Mark Yokomizo, Westlake Village, CAAh Darren, your selective memory serves you once again. When bush ordered the start of the Iraq invasion, the major discussion was did we have enough troops to win the peace after the war. Most military people said we did not have enough. Gen. Shinseki resigned/was removed since he was vocal about the troop levels needed for the peace. If you remember the looting and pillaging after the fall of Saddam, sadly, this is when Biden et al loudly asked about troop levels being sufficient. Rummy & Cheney said we had enough; the facts speak differently. However, you did answer my question with your response...you ARE INCAPABLE of seeing both sides of an issue unlike most people who post here. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46443Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:16:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46443Carrie, NW IowaPaw Paw - That is the War Powers Resolution of 1973 (or maybe 1974?). Anyway, it allows the President a maximum of 90 days to deploy troops without receiving Congressional approval..but at any point during those 90 days, Congress can say no. The problem is, once the troops are there it's a lot harder to get them out than to just say "take them out." In addition, if I remember correctly, the president is supposed to update Congress on the status of any troop deployments. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46446Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:18:37 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46446catwoman, Chico, CANow I know the result of South Carolina's foray into the nuclear industry over the last 15 years.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46458Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:24:49 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46458CJDarren's question: "Again, Carrie, I ask, what new information came was made available to cause Biden and other dems to change their stance that we needed more troops in Iraq to no new troops in under a month?" Answer: 2003 - Q1 2005 = supression of militants and possible Civil War (more troops) 2005 - present = Civil War, inevitable ethnic cleansing of Sunni population (beyond military control) good enough?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46490Wed, 31 Jan 2007 19:38:16 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46490Mad Mike Proud Army VetPeter truth is this is not an oil war...we haven't taken a drop of oil since we've been over there that theory was debunked a while a go. Next Social Security and universal healthcare. Many Americans don't want universal healthcare do you want what they have in Canada France and anywhere else this fiasco has been deployed? One of my relatives lives in Canada and he had to wait for over 6 months in pain to have knee surgery they just kept moving him back and moving other people in front of him. I'm glad we live in a country where we get the best medical treatment in the world. Do you think the quality of health care providers with stick around or even choose healthcare as a proffesion when the government steps in and tells them what they should pay themselves? So that's debunked. And finally Social Security...what a joke our leaders have broke the bank on that one. We don't need to raise taxes to pay for this there have been instances in which Social Security funds were treated like invesment funds and it was successful read the article weblink included below... http://www.socialsecurity.org/pubs/ssps/ssp-17es.html So I hope that clears everything up for you...you are right I don't think we have very many honest politicians. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46523Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:02:33 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46523Bob. Lipsett Sr. North Attleboro, MA. 02760-4388Ay,Jay of Texas, Just how long do you imagine that our troops will be in Iraq? My bet is the Permanent "Colossal Embassy and five (5) military bases will be there long after we are dead or until another country runs us out, as did Afghanistan did to the Soviet Union. Earlier I asked how in "Hell" do some of the things I submit not get view. Surprise, surprise that one of twenty or thirty got mentioned. Maybe I sound negetive, but when Lt. Gen. David Petraus was in charge of the 101 st Airbourne command He made comments while flying over Tommy Franks route to Baghdad to dispose of Saddam Hussein, he was heard to say to those flying with him "Look at all those dirt mounds and he preceded to say that they were Ammo Dumps that were left unguarded and those same Ammo Dumps will be used by the enemy to kill our troops" Why wasn't anything done then? This illegal invasion was just another ploy to get a foot hold in the Middle East, since we were asked by the Saudi government to take our military boots out of the "Holy Land", which forced the USA to look for another Middle East "OUTPOST" to protect and defend Israel. To date our brave military just following orders, now have lost 3,079 of their brothers and sisters for this deliberate lie that Judy Miller help legitimize by the drum beats of war in Oct. 2002. Remember, UN-AMERICAN and UNPATRIOTIC for not agreeing with the lie of Karl Rove/Dick Cheney and the other nitwicks of war.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46561Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:29:42 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46561J.DOEi like you darren!! its good to see a good, smart person through all these tye-dye hippies!!!http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46564Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:32:02 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46564Olivia, Peoria, Ill.LOL about catwoman's remark about "the result of South Carolina's foray into the nuclear industry". Now for more serious matters: CJ mentions the "ethnic cleansing" of the Sunni population. How about the Bush Administration's own ethnic cleansing by inaction in our own country? I'm referring, of course, to what Bush's neglect of New Orleans has brought about. Prior to Katrina, her population was 67% African-American; now it's closer to 50/50. Obviously Bush, a closet racist, does not value New Orleans' one-of-a-kind, diverse culture. And there's an economic aspect to this, too--many of the New Orleanians who ended up evacuating were poor. Nowadays citizens who want to return, and their advocates, want the housing projects that had been flooded cleaned up and re-opened, but the city wants to tear them down because prior to the storm they had been crime-ridden and had other problems. Unfortunately for many poor, elderly, etc., the projects, though not good places to live, are the only places they can afford. So the activists who want the projects brought back think the city is trying to discourage the poor from returning. There are a lucky few New Orleanians who've managed to find good jobs and good homes in the places they'd evacuated to, are no longer poor, and understandably have no desire to give up their new stations in life by moving back to New Orleans, but this sort of thing is akin to winning the Lotto. Most of the poor and elderly are homesick for Louisiana and want to go back. But the shortage of affordable housing is keeping them from doing so. This is a threat to New Orleans' future.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46566Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:32:36 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46566Chris, TNOk guys..lets have a mini quiz!! How Long Did it Take For AMERICA to establish itself? Wasn't AMERICA still fighting eachother in 1865? If you answered those two questions..then ask yourself this?? How in the hell is it reasonable to believe Iraq will be ok to run itself in five years. Give me a break. Stop Complaining!!! If you honestly think that pulling troops out is a smart thing to do..you are no smarter then a damn door knob!http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46581Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:40:47 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46581Mark MurrayAll -- this is a reminder to keep your comments free of personal attacks. We want to keep the discussion as civil as possible. Thanks.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46587Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:46:35 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46587AsadI'm a liberal Democrat, and I say we should NOT leave Iraq right now. The right thing to do is fix the mess that we have created in Iraq and the broader Middle East. We should deliver on the promises we've made to Iraq and make sure that the stability there is at least at the pre-invasion level. We've succeeded in turning that country into the very thing we went there to fix: it is now run by religious fundamentalists, it is a safe haven for militants, it is a partner of Iran. Instead of freedom flowing into the neighboring countries, sectarian tensions are. So PLEASE don't give this guy a free pass to simply declare a disaster and leave. Hold him accountable to fix this mess so future generations don't have to face the consequences.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46589Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:48:59 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46589spunky munkyOlivia we get it Katrina. That does not make our commander in chief a closet racist. Let it go already. I'm sorry for what those people had to go through but's it's not Bush's fault it's why not blame the moranic Democrats running the state government. Of all of the states that had problems after all of the hurricanes only those with Republican governors made speedy recoveries. And now the Democrats are back in power...God help us everyone....http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46593Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:51:09 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46593Ay Jay, TXThanks for the reasoned and non-emotional replies everyone. I understand being against the war before it started, but we are in a very different situation today. It isn't so easy to just pull the plug on Iraq and walk away and then blast blame around here while things slip into chaos there. In Vietnam, there was chaos in the region for 20 years after we pulled out, a couple million additional deaths in the expanded civil wards in Cambodia, Laos, and Vietnam, another half million or so died in the wind down in Vietnam itself, small wars between Vietnam and Cambodia, and Vietnam and China, refugees everywhere. It was a terrible mess for years. With Iraq, we could very well have the same problem, but on a MUCH larger scale, just because of the higher population densities in the cities, and the location of Iraq, and the injection of more potent religious fanaticism instead of political fanaticism. Our pull out will be an open invitation for the Shia and Sunni to have at it, and with Iran feeding the Shia, and Saudi Arabia (unofficially, of course) and Syria backing the Sunni, and the Kurds pushing for autonomy, it could get UGLY, as in drawing in Iran, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, et al into a proxy war over Iraq, or worse. America has always gotten relatively small portions of its oil from the middle east. The primary users of middle eastern oil are actually nations in the Eurasian continent, like the Europeans and China. America could probably tolerate losing 7-10% of our oil supply that we currently draw from the middle east with some major irritations, but Europe and Asian nations will be devestated, and then they'll start bidding up prices on other sources, like the ones we use in America, and you'd likely get radical increases in fuel prices, a fairly sharp global crash in economic output because of that, and a global increase in human suffering due to economic woes. In the short to medium term, such a result would be a real global crisis. Hopefully, it just remains local and doesn't spread, if we do pull out before the new Iraqi government is secure and capable of keeping some kind of order. I think that to risk this type of outcome would be unwise, to say the least. This outcome would be worse than the status quo, worse than the "new plan", far worse than if we eventually succeeded. Noone can really say what the odds are as to whether or not a collapse would happen. The best we could hope for with a complete withdrawl is a serious encouragemnt of terrorism against America as an effective means of pressuring us, and that the ensuing fighing between the sunni and shia stays generally within Iraq. Who knows what the human cost to the Iraqis would be? As bad as it is now, it would be FAR worse for them if we leave nothing serious in place to fill the "order" vaccuum. The rush to leave without completing our efforts will have clear costs and risks, and I DON'T hear much debate and discussion of those consequences, and how they might relate to staying, or reinforcing or other options.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46594Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:51:36 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46594Paw Paw, NCThanks Carrie it's really pretty plain and if you read this Congress has to take the blame for our troops still being in Iraq. The Democrats & Republicans were so busy riding the triumphant wave with their noses so far up the President's Whazoo they couldn't see the truth. The purpose of the War Powers Resolution is to ensure that Congress and the President share in making decisions that may get the U.S. involved in hostilities. Portions of the War Powers Resolution require the President to consult with Congress "prior to the start of any hostilities" as well as "regularly until U.S. armed forces are no longer engaged in hostilities" (Sec. 3); and to remove U.S. armed forces from hostilities if Congress has not declared war or passed a resolution authorizing the use of force within 60 days (Sec. 5(b)). Following an official request by the President to Congress, the time limit can be extended by an additional 30 days (presumably when "unavoidable military necessity" requires additional action for a safe withdrawal).http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46604Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:58:59 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46604Carrie, NW IowaMad Mike - Whether you get the best medical treatment in this country often depends on what income bracket you happen to fall into. It's not just a given that because you live in America, you get the best medical treatment.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46605Wed, 31 Jan 2007 20:59:03 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46605Ay Jay, TXForgot to add, my family has borne some of the personal costs of the effort. I'm not stranger to it. My brother escorted convoys there for a year and has pictures of the bullet holes in his HMMWV from ambushes. My youngest brother is leaving in May to head that way for over a year. I've had many ROTC college buddies deploy there several times already. It's not something I'm not closely personally interested in. My brother is even more adamant about pursuing success there and trying to avoid a stinging defeat than I am, and he was there risking is life every day. If he thinks it is worth the risks and the cost, I have a hard time arguing with him. If it weren't for some medical issues, I'd have probably been there too.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46607Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:00:10 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46607Rick Lapin, Albuquerque, NMTee-shirt seen already in an Albuquerque mall: "My folks voted Dem - and all I got was this crappy Resolution". http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46614Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:02:30 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46614rickMad Mike Proud Army Vet, just out of curiousity, do you take advantage of VA medical care? Some might see that as "universal health care" for a certain segment of our population. That said, I hope not everyone falls into the "straw-person" trap you seem to imply. I do not think that the only choices available in the debate about how to provide the best medical care for the citizens of the US are either you're for the present system or you're for socialized medicine. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46689Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:55:11 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46689Mad MikeRick.... I do not I'm fully covered at work but I have used VA for other things. If the Democrats or Republicans could present something worth while when it comes to our healthcare I would have no problem with it as long as it didn't change the care, costs, and coverage my family and I currently have..... http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46690Wed, 31 Jan 2007 21:55:26 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46690Mad MikeCarrie....if you're not in the right income bracket then go get an education and work to get there no excuses I've seen people do it time and again quit complaining about the status que of you're life (not saying you Carrie just an example) and do something about it.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46695Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:00:26 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46695Dennis E. Dallas, TXAy Jay, if you are so strongly for success in Iraq do you seriously believe that will be accomplished by Bush's current plan? Would it not be more logical to say that we need 10 times the number he has suggested, or more, to be sure that the job gets done once and for all. The problem with that is, I think that the insurgents/sectarian fighters/militias will simply fade into the country side and wait until the US declares victory/success and then withdraws to a smaller level, at which time they will come back out of the wood work and start it all over againhttp://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46699Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:06:50 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46699Olivia, Peoria, Ill.spunky munky--Regarding Bush's response to Katrina: Do you know that when the storm was going on, Bush was vacationing at his Crawford ranch, from which it would have been easy for him to make a quick trip to New Orleans and the Mississippi Gulf Coast to check out the situation as a national leader should. But guess what? He didn't. Instead, he flew out to California where he played air guitar at some fundraiser. (How appropriate--an airhead playing air guitar!) Meanwhile, after the storm, local people in Louisiana and Mississippi were doing what they could trying to help their fellow citizens out. And in New Orleans the Coast Guard and local groups such as the NOLA Homeboys and Cajun Navy carried out rescues. Back to President Nero who fiddled when New Orleans not only flooded but burned in a myriad of fires that made her skyline resemble Baghdad's. It took him about a week even to fly over and look down on the disaster area--and "fly over" and "look down on" are the operative phrases here. I really feel that Bush would have been far more motivated to act meaningfully--not only during the storm but also afterwards regarding supporting New Orleans' recovery--had Louisiana instead of being one of the poorest states in the nation been a populous, relatively-affluent state similar to Florida which has a large congressional delegation and substantial block of electoral votes. With a great deal of potential GOP contributors. The state and local officials in Louisiana could have done better--but in fairness to them the magnitude of the disaster overwhelmed them, and Louisiana fell apart. Katrina was the most extensive disaster to happen in America in many years, and the Idiot-in-chief should have kept this in mind (if he even has one) instead of going off and playing air guitar. Now you refer to "states with Republican governors" which "made speedy recoveries." I presume you mean Mississippi, the fiefdom of loyal GOP potentate Haley Barbour, which has a Congressional delegation containing the powerful GOP luminary Trent Lott, and has been making a speedy recovery and here's why. Louisiana sustained 80% of the damage including the loss of 80% of New Orleans. Which is bad enough because it already makes her situation much more difficult to recover from. But, to add insult to injury, as Governor Blanco said recently, the Bush Administration, with the help of Republicans in Congress, has been giving Mississippi proportionately more aid than it has been giving Louisiana. I don't feel like going into the specific examples, on which I blogged in detail several times last week. But here's the Cliff's Notes version--Louisiana which as noted suffered 80% of the damage got less than 50% of the aid. For example, Mississippi's program to help homeowners rebuild got its start 6 months earlier than Louisiana's, because funding for it was approved that much sooner. Hence Republican Mississippi's speedy recovery. Last but not least, how do you like Bush's omitting all mention from his State of Denial speech New Orleans or Katrina? While I wouldn't go so far as to say, "God help us," regarding the Democrats in Congress, I do want them to stand up to Bush and be pro-active at helping New Orleans rebuild instead of mostly keeping that city on the back burner the way the Bush Administration has. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46702Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:07:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46702Steve Turner Cedar Falls IowaBob./ You've obviously crossed a line somewhere if something you wrote didn't make it on. It's happened to me a number of times, but I don't worry about it. I know I'm a smart aleck on occasion and suffer the occasional diarrhea of the mouth, or in this case, keyboard. I trust Elizabeth, Mark, and Huma to edit out anything that they feel needs to be vetted, and go on. Editing doesn't stop my brain in its' tracks, there's always another inane subject that will send it off in an entirely new direction, and within nanoseconds, I've forgotten one thing, and focused on a new thing. By and large, I feel they probably have as good a senses of humors, as any editors I have been enslaved to.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46713Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:14:09 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46713Bob. Lipsett Sr. North Attleboro, MA 02760-4388Ay Jay, Tx. You still didn't answer my question. Are we in Iraq for a lifetime in the Defense of Israel forever? Joe LIE-BER-MAN seems to never want take our troops out and bring them back home. On another matter concerning the Middle East is, Remember that Menachim Begin was one of the very first "Terrorist" in the Palestine Countries. His land grab, terrorisim and occupation of Palestinian land lead the dispute in the Middle East. Our government has supplied Israel with the most sophisticated arms, weapons and money ($2.5 Billion per year to keep our presents in the Middle East. Once Saudi Arabia was our turn to allies, but with the threat from Osama Bin Laden they were afraid that they would be the next WTC and asked the U.S. Military to leave the "Holy Land" So Ay Jay this is why we are stuck in Iraq and until someone bigger than the USA comes along to boot us out, we can expect our troops to have the bulleye on their backs. Devoid of all the information against this invasion, this commander-in-chief will have to declare "martial Law" which is close now by all the Military leaders in command of virtually every thing or to blame the liberals for the mistakes they caused, Why was Jim O'Beirne picked to stack the L. Paul Bremmer CPA? Just another incompenate political hack that voted for Bush. The Emerald Embassy in Iraq gives a full account to the direct lies, decite, and mistakes. How many as your brothers are you willing to sacrific for this a power grab by these world wide thieves in this administration?.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46727Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:28:19 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46727Sierra, San Francisco, CAAy Jay: You can't solve the Iraq problem with a 'surge/escalation'. What is the answer ? How about NEGOTIATING. The Iraq Study Group suggested negotiating with Iran and Syria. Bush wants war with Iran. The answer is to NEGOTIATE with Iran, Syria, the Shiias, the Sunnis and the Kurds. You are trying to set up a false choice: either support Bobo Deluxe or withdraw completely. Why not negotiate ?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46728Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:29:28 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46728Carrie, NW IowaHey Mike...guess what? I DID that. I put myself through an undergraduate degree in political science, and then I put myself through law school. And guess what? For about 6 years, I had no health insurance because I couldn't afford to pay several hundred dollars a month for it. I'm very fortunate that I remained healthy during that time period but not everyone is so lucky. Nor is everyone able to get into the higher income bracket simply by getting a job or going to college. If it was that easy, there would be no poverty in this country. Going to college requires money; getting a job requires opportunity. This is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. There are so many obstacles to lifting yourself out of poverty, and clearly you don't understand any of them. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46735Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:32:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46735Ricardo in California Spunky monkey .... i should remind you that Republicans were in control for six years..the result.. a war which is in chaos and out of control and sadly over 3,000 dead americans ....republicans had their chance and blew it ....http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46769Wed, 31 Jan 2007 23:15:55 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46769Mindi, SacramentoDarren Pope- Funny, that's what many people in America say about the current administration. How can anyone have faith in what the Bush administration says after their gross miscalculations? There's plenty of blame to go around. But I forget, if anyone says anything opposing the current administration's policies (no matter how small) we are unpatriotic (forget that we do live in a democracy, I guess you could call it an oligarchy now). Again I ask you, (how many times have I asked this and you have yet to answer?)If the current "surge" or "escalation" policy does not produce any progress and the level of violence stays the same or worsens, same low turn out of Iraqi legislator participation (less than a majority), same amount of Iraqi army and police personnel loyal to organizations other than a unity government (read militias, which is happening), same amount of Iraqi army troops just not showing up or disappearing for periods of time (happening), same low electric output (lower than pre-war levels), etc., etc., etc., What Next? If this war is so important why is no one but the military and their families being asked to sacrifice? It the war is so important, everyone should be asked to sacrifice, blood or money. It was absolutely appalling and outrageous that Bush said "people are sacrificing, their sacrificing their piece of mind." Until these questions are answered by this administration with some semblance of reality, I don't want my loved one in harms way another second.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46779Wed, 31 Jan 2007 23:30:11 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46779Ay JayI have no problem with negotiation, but WHO are you going to negotiate with? These small fractured factions with intricate alliances and webs of friends and enemies will be hard to deal with, nay, practically impossible to deal with on a comprehensive basis, and cannot be expected to unify under one banner to be negotiated with, let alone be expected to comply with the agreement that would result from any negotiation. Besides, I don't see much of a chance that many of these parties have any interest whatsoever in negotiating. That would acutally set them back, seeing as the effects of terror and mayhem have been quite dramatic on the American public...Better than any negotiation they could have hoped for. They don't have to trade anything but a few of their lives for ours to intimidate us into withdrawing, and they get free reign to kill and destroy when we leave. I would have no problem with negotiating with Syria and Iran, but what leverage do we have to bring to the table? They have no reason to come to the table at all. With the current situation and the weakness of America at home, they know it is just a matter of time that America pulls out with the current situation if they do nothing at all. If anything, they'll talk a lot to keep us baited, and increase the aid to insurgents and sponsored terror elements. If we could actually get them to commit to an honest good faith negotiation, what could they really do anyways. They "control" their borders, yes, but not nearly adequately enough to stop weapons and men from getting into Iraq. They can't really at all control events inside Iraq in any other way than this flow of arms and men..... We need be in Iraq only long enough to stabilize it to the point where the Iraqi government can more or less maintain some semblance of civil order. Once that point is reached, we need to get the bulk of our forces out ASAP, except for perhaps some longer deployments of trainers and a quick strike force to deal with major terrorist events. I am completely FOR getting out of there as soon as Iraq is feasably stabile on its own. It is clearly not there yet, which is why a premature withdrawl is an invitation for chaos. We may end up trading saving a few American lives now, with having to spend many many more down the road in a UN effort to stamp out expanded regional violence if Iraq collapses. Who can tell the future? I believe that with the right approach, that insurgencies can be supressed to the point where they are manageable to the host society/nation alone, ergo Ireland, or the Phillipines. It wouldn't be easy, but it is possible, and IF possible, would plainly be the best solution over all. I know that it is likely that the Sunni and Shia extremists will be fighting until the end of time, but with a strong, stabile central government, the fighting could be suppressed and contained. The issue is whether or not we can get to the point of having that type of government in Iraq. Other nations with both populations in the region have strong central governments that are effectively keeping order right now ,today. Maybe they aren't the most democratic, but they are working. Turkey for example.. Or Jordan. You don't see massive uprisings there, but maybe sporadic terror at worst, yet something manageable. I don't see why Americans are so pessimistic, and self-doubting. We can win to the point of a stable Iraq if we want to, the question is only if we have the will. Some of us do, but is plain many don't. If we do end up in failure, that failure will have consequences. Let us hope in that event that those consequences don't become worse than the war/police action itself is.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46789Wed, 31 Jan 2007 23:44:04 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46789The Dogg in FloridaOnce again I see someone saying that if we don't stop Bush he'll be a dictator soon. Funny, that has been said for a while now and it still hasn't happened. I'll give my same response. If he is working for dictatorship and can control elections, why did the Dems sweep to power in November? http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46802Thu, 01 Feb 2007 00:04:09 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46802Jim, Santa CruzDarren, you are right, planning an end to war is difficult - more so than planning to start a war. And if one plans the war ineptly, such as by misunderstanding his enemy or battle ground, then it is extremely difficult to plan victory, an exit or an end to it. Second, Iraq did not attack the US, Bush and Co. had plenty of time to plan the war correctly. They did not. The analogy you make to WWII is incorrect - Viet Nam is more akin to this situation. One could call it a quagmire. So back to my main point I stated earlier - the United Nations should be fully engaged, equipped and supported by its member states to take control of the Middle East. It's a very large job that will take a great deal of planning and cooperation and diplomacy. But the alternative will be catastrophic if things continue as they are.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#46809Thu, 01 Feb 2007 00:15:37 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:46809Jim, Santa CruzDogg, these folks that allude to W becoming a dictator are simply under the illusion that the president is supposed to abide by the Constitution and serve the wil of the people. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#47013Thu, 01 Feb 2007 03:37:52 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:47013Working on it.Steve Turner: "Bipartisan" in this Administration, actually means "Bipolar". Do you remember in the movie, "A Fish Called Wanda", where Jamie Leigh Curtis said "to call you stupid is to insult all stupid people"? Well, speaking as someone who is Bipolar, I would rather not be compared in any way to this administration, if you don't mind. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#47015Thu, 01 Feb 2007 03:38:27 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:47015Bob Lipsett Sr. North Attleboro, MA. 02760-4388The Dogg in Florida, The Democrats won in Nov. 06 mainly due to the lies and the loss of 3,000 brave military who were just following orders. Today Jan. 31, 2007 the 1,389 th day since "Mission Accomplished" with 3,079 dead military from a war of choice. The public got tired on slogans and different plans that didn't work. They got tired of the wasteful spending and the giddiness of the defense stockholders. Just plain and simple we got tired of Karl Rove/Cheney/Bush and these supporters that buy election (Joe LIE-BER-MAN, couldn't take defeat by Ned Larmont, so he begged his deep pockets supporter to keep his seat warm in the Senate and defeated a good honest worker) and by calling people un-american or unpatriotic. The economy is supposed to be great, but we have page after page of foreclosure notices in the Providence Journal each day. Maybe Mr. Dogg of Florida, it was someone told them (Lou Dobbs) that two of our border patrol agents are in prison for doing their job, as catching a drugsmuggler from mexico and in return the Justice Dept gave immunity to the drug dealer to press charges aginst Ramos & Compose for shooting at him and capturing him. Nice reward, they did their job and got sent to prison for 10 years while the drug dealer sues the U.S. government for, get this now, five ($5) million dollars as his civil rights were violated. Not even one word from this so-called commander-in-chief about the inquiry from at least 55 congressman or Senators asking him to review their case. In case anyone wants to call and protest about the 10 year prison sentence call the Attorney General Office in Washington D.C. at 1-202-514-2001 or the Whitehouse hot line at 1-202-456-1111 and make yor voice heard about how our border patrol agents are being treated. Our troops are being killed daily to protect we americans, but the border patrol can not capture a drugsmuggler and our National guard has to back away from illegal immigrants carring weapons. Something definitely is wrong with this situation and that my friend Mr. Dogg from Florida is why the door is finally opened for our,constitutional rights of, we the people, for the people and of the people and the USA can see the real shambles of this government. Watch Lou Dobbs (CNN), Chris Mathews "Hardball" (MSNBC), or "Countdowns" Keith Olberman (MSNBC) a Republican named Joe Scarbough (MSNBC)after "Countdown. Want the real news, then turn off the FOX noise channel and listen to what concerns Americans the most. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#47052Thu, 01 Feb 2007 04:22:35 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:47052Steve Turner Cedar Falls IowaDogg. Mussolini thought he had the Dictator thing all worked out. He ended up hanging by his feet from a lamp post with his mistress.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#47293Thu, 01 Feb 2007 14:05:53 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:47293Mad Mike Proud Army VetCarrie, good for you I'm glad you made it...and yes I do know a lot about poverty without going into specifics my wife who's a Democrat and up until recently a Social Worker has had a huge impact and dispelled many myths I (and I freely admit) in my own ignorance once had about the poor. In each case aside from mental issues (which is quite common in for the homeless) if people wanted to work hard and pull themselves up they did. The word is IF. And it's a lot easier to be handed something than to work toward it or change a career when the demand for your trade has and will continue to diminish. If you want it bad enough you can make it happen and you Carrie are just another example of how great the opportunities are in this country IF you are willing to work hard and sacrafice. Now if you had God forbid gotton sick or had an accident and needed healthcare you would not have been turned away from care even if you couldn't pay for it at the time. Why do you think so many of us have problems with the illegals we're paying for (in the billions) their (unisured) healthcare public schooling etc. in our taxes. You cannot get turned away from medical treatment in this country so in essence we already have free health care the difference is the quality and I for one am not willing to give up the quality of my health care. So I have a problem of wateriing down our health care system for people who chose not to work hard and smart. I understand there are some execptions but for the most part if you chose not to adapt or not to work hard to get the kind of life and benefits that go along with it then I chose not to share what I've worked so hard for. If that sounds harsh too bad that's why I live in America if I didn't want to work hard and I wanted a free ride with small expectations in living standards I would move...that's why France was invented. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#47498Thu, 01 Feb 2007 16:02:20 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:47498.Working on it: I know how you feel - I think referring to Cheney as "Vice President" is an insult to vice.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#47588Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:02:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:47588Susan, NebraskaI have a solution, the same way you send a kid to his room until it is cleaned up. . . put the oval office in the middle of one of Sadaam's palace's and make Bush stay there 'til he has cleaned up his mess. We can handle stuff here until he gets back. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#47667Thu, 01 Feb 2007 17:52:56 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:47667Dorothy.--LOL--"referring to Cheney as 'Vice President' is an insult to vice." When I was 7 or so, I asked Dad what "Vice" means. He replied, "Something naughty," However, I'd been thinking of "Vice" as in "Vice President"--but judging from how some Vice Presidents we've had have acted, the conclusion I'd drawn from my Dad's reply back then wasn't far off the mark. (How did the term "Vice President" originate, anyway?) http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#47815Thu, 01 Feb 2007 19:35:47 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:47815Carrie, NW Iowa"You cannot get turned away from medical treatment in this country." With all due respect, Mike, that's a complete crock. You may get all bandaged up but that doesn't mean you will get fixed. And even if you do, you have the pleasure of being saddled with debts you will never be able to pay because, let's face it, if you could pay them you probably could afford to pay for insurance in the first place. I'm not saying that it's impossible to lift yourself out of poverty but I do think that you oversimplify it. Part of the problem is that in many areas there is such a culture of poverty that people have given up hope. And if you don't have hope, you are not going to try. When doors have been slammed in your face day after day and year after year, you eventually stop knocking. Now, maybe you look at that as being weak and giving up. I look at that as being human. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#47978Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:03:55 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:47978Mad Mike Proud Army VetThomas Edison failed over 2000 times but the very light you see present everywhere is because he didn't give up. You're right people give up but it's a choice there are few exceptions for every one person that's given up I can show you someone in the exact same position that didn't. You Carrie didn't give up and I'm sure it was an extremely difficult challenge but someone somewhere in the same situation like you gave up. I for one do not wish to foot the bill for people who decide they would rather give up. I feel bad for them but just the same if one of their peers could do it why couldn't they. I guess we must agree to disagree. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#47986Thu, 01 Feb 2007 22:09:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:47986Susan, NebraskaWell said Carrie, not everything is black and white. We are talking about human lives, and there is no such thing as universal health care. If you dont have money you are given an aspirin and sent on your way. Or you are left to sit in the emergency waiting room while everyone with insurance is ushered in before you. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#48136Fri, 02 Feb 2007 01:26:42 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:48136Jane, Southern MississippiOlivia and spunky munky, go to "Rising from the Ruin" on this site. Read the last diary entry and then decide if Mississippi has had such a speedy recovery. Go down to the Mississippi Coast and see for yourselves if Mississippi had only 20 percent of the damage. Open your eyes.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#48392Fri, 02 Feb 2007 15:26:39 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:48392spunky munkyJane, Olivia is the one that's obssesed with NO not me. She's the one that thinks she knows what's going on and writes a novel about it each time she posts. Please don't put me in the same boat as her because it's sinking like a rock. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#48899Sat, 03 Feb 2007 04:27:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:48899Jane, Southern Mississippispunky munky, you said in one of your posts that the states with republican governors are making speedy recoveries, so I WAS talking to you. Speedy would not be my word for it. Sorry, but you just don't know what you are talking about. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#49068Sat, 03 Feb 2007 20:00:36 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:49068Dorothy"Rock the boat, don't rock the boat baby, rock the boat, don't tip the boat forward, rock the boat, don't rock the boat baby, rock the bo--oaT!"http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#49071Sat, 03 Feb 2007 20:15:03 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:49071OliviaJane--I have read "Rising from Ruin." That's an excellent blog and I find it interesting--I wish it were updated more often so I'd read it more often. In fact, I do know Mississippi has also been having problems with recovery, which takes time, and I feel for you. But I'm also aware of the state's first-rate political team including the powerful Trent Lott, that has been able to pry help out of the Bush Administration, which Louisiana hasn't been able to. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/01/31/45917.aspx#49284Sun, 04 Feb 2007 19:48:56 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:49284Oliviaspunk--If you're not crazy about my "novels," just don't read them, O.K.? Snide remarks about what I say are unnecesary and are just a waste of your time and effort because I feel very strongly about this issue and will continue to post until I'm satisfied with how it's being handled.