First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:27:13 GMT

Andrew Sullivan’s soporiphic tome foretold in the full frontal cover of Atlantic magazine, December issue, is rather a portent of the critical moment in Hillary Clinton’s march to retake the White House from the Visigoths.

“Why Obama Matters” blazes the headline superimposed over Obama’s superimposed face over the 100 or so photos of the great and wannabe great political actors in America (Anne Coulter graces his right frontal cerebral cortex).

All of this to announce two major pieces therein which, to one degree or another, invite us to pause that we may reconsider the Great Man.

None of this is particularly bothersome or noteworthy except as an intimation of what certain people want us to read… right now.

Obama has played a fine hand of cards within the inner game and has earned one more shot… another look.

This, of course, is a nightmare for the Clintons despite their glittering Nevada poll numbers. The poll numbers in Iowa, where the world is watching, are quite a different kettle.

On cue, we will be getting many such messages in the coming weeks. As if the political gods are offering us one more chance at Obama this time round. Else the cameras dim, for now, for the man who would be The Man, but will be lucky to get Secretary of HHS in a Clinton Administration.

Take a long, hard, look In Vegas tonight. Who looks back? Who is the man the oligarchy would deign to superimpose on the nation? Is he a better choice than their “favorite daughter” Hillary?

Who is this man who has been granted one last chance to matter to those who matter?

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

DickieFlatts, Charlotte, NC — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:28:37 GMT

Will Kathleen Hennessey's write up today in AP cause Obama some heartburn in Vegas? She writes:

"Democrat Barack Obama opposes a bill that would change the nation's 135-year-old mining law -- the same stance as mining industry executives who employ a Nevada-based lobbyist advising the presidential candidate.

The Obama campaign and Billy Vassiliadis, a longtime Nevada power broker, contend there is no connection, saying they have never discussed Obama's position on the mining bill."

Will Kucinich renew his attack against John Edwards over China trade. The Kucinich camp recently put this out:

"And, at least one then-member of the Senate, John Edwards, who has been railing lately in favor of higher safety standards for Chinese-made products, defended his 2000 vote supporting expanded China trade with the famously reported comment, "it does us no good to pretend that these remedies are perfect and that people will not be hurt."

"Senator Edwards knew seven years ago that people would be hurt, so why did he vote for China trade?"Kucinich asked. "How credible is his newfound consumer protectionism and his campaign advocacy for trade reform to save American jobs?"

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

jerry/corpus christi texas — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:32:57 GMT

After that meeting in which someone said that Tim Russert ought to be shot, one has to wonder if Hillary has some seriously mentally challenged people on her team.

Clinton -- who had stated, for the most part, that she generally supported Spitzer's plan -- said yesterday in a statement: "As President, I will not support drivers' licenses for undocumented people and will press for comprehensive immigration reform that deals with all of the issues around illegal immigration."

A little late Hillary, you should have answered the question and saved yourself some misery and maybe a full attack tonight by just coming clean. But then again, Hillary can't say anything until a man comes out with his take.

This should be a war tonight, if the other's aren't scared off by Hillary playing the gender card. Hillary can be the comeback girl by going after her guys, but I don't think she has it in her to debate a man.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Lyn, MD — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:33:25 GMT

You were very quick to put up Mcgoverns defense of Hillary...even referenced it again today. Why no equal time for Gen McPeak rebutal and 'smackdown" of him in the Huffington Post:

Obama Was Right on the War From the Start
Posted November 14, 2007 | 06:07 PM (EST)

Barack Obama put his political career on the line in 2002 to speak out against a "dumb war" and "a rash war" in Iraq. He warned of, "an occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined costs, with undetermined consequences." Read this speech - he got it right.

In his rush to misrepresent Senator Obama's record, Congressman McGovern forgot to include the last sentence of the quote that Obama gave to Tim Russert in 2004: "What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made." He then said, "What I don't think was appropriate was the degree to which Congress gave the President a pass on this." And when Wolf Blitzer asked him a similar question at the time, he said, "I would've voted no."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tony-mcpeak/obama-was-right-on-the-wa_b_72692.html

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Sara, Cedar Rapids, Iowa — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:36:52 GMT

Interesting how little the media has payed attention to the fact that Biden spoke to both Musharaff and Bhutto before the WH did.

I guess I should be happy you even mentioned it with such other important factors as Dodd being shocked at Edwards anger.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

John Tully — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:40:19 GMT

Do you think the questions from Blitzer will be evenly spread out amongst the candidates? Or, even perhaps, will they have more substance than how a certain statement affects Hillary? I doubt it.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

diane — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:40:51 GMT

Edwards is inclined not to support clinton if the nominee. A position many democrats agree with. But, he did not say he would not support any of the others if they got the nod. this should raise flags. Not be blown off. If he would stand by any of the others and not Clinton, you need to ask why. it is not anger. it is that he, like many of us know that clinton is a bad candidate who would do more damage than good to the party and the country.
Why does the press note that on the gop side, alot of the base dislikes guillianni but, it is always ignored on our side about Clinton. half the democratic party cannot abide her and will not vote for her.
and her coming out with a position yesterday with the licenses is one reason why. Many people will support a candidate who they may not agree with on an issue. They see it as character and backbone. And it is known that you may not always agree with everything with a candidate. But, at least that person has the guts to take a position.
With Clinton it is always mulitiple and vague positions and flip flopping. That shows a deep character flaw and deceit on her end. You cannot respect a person who has not the character to stand by a position, popular or not.
And Obama was absolutely right the other night. She doesn't take a position because it may not be popular and she thinks she is owed this presidency.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Howard L. Wilson, POBox 91, Andover, NH 03216 — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:44:02 GMT

Not much to choose from. Not a damn one of the candidates has even read the US Constitution & its appended Bill of Rights. And each wil grow the size and scope of the "federal Government", at the expense of the Rights of the Individual, as they are transformed into either "privilege" or dumped off, altogether, as irrelevant to thier peculiar needs.
And they even endorse "discrimination", by not having an outright Socialist, as Mike Gravel, on stage with them.
Give me a reaking Republican, as Ron Paul, who at least reads & votes as if the US Constitution, were still a valid document, limiting the size and scope of government.
And, should he lose both the primaries & the Republican Convention, there is the fall-back position of having a Libertarian or 2 on the November 2008 ballot, from President on down.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Jeff P, NY, NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:47:30 GMT

Unfortunately it took segregationist Governor Wallace to reveal the truth that "there's not a dime's worth of difference between" Republicans and Democrats. The Democrats willingly went along with the War in Iraq, suspension of Habeas Corpus, detaining protesters, banning books like "America Deceived' from Amazon, stealing private lands (Kelo decision), warrant-less wiretapping and refusing to investigate 9/11 properly. They are both guilty of treason.
Support Dr. Ron Paul and save this great nation.
Last link (before Google Books bends to gov't Will and drops the title):
http://www.iuniverse.com/bookstore/book_detail.asp?&isbn=0-595-38523-0

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

MK,MO — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:48:05 GMT

be for-warned the hillary operatives are very active on first-read today, fortunately they are all to easy to spot, looks as though desperation has set in, enjoy

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mike, Baltimore MD — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:52:22 GMT

One more knockout punch and Obama wins the nomination. I think hammering Hillary on her switch to oppose licenses now that Spitzer pulled the proposal sealed the deal.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Jim Purdy, Tulsa, Oklahoma — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:52:48 GMT

I want Senator Mike Gravel back in the debates. If you want experience, all the way back to Vietnam, Senator Gravel is the one. If you want real change, he's the one. Bring Senator Gravel back into the debates!

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

michael, st louis area — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:57:22 GMT

Gravel kucinich paul nader perot carter [conyers?rangel?] united for truth elicit fear smear blacklist.

Honesty compassion intelligence guts.

No more extortion blackmail bribery division.

Divided we fall.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

J. Merle Stanley, Westchester, NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:58:03 GMT

First Read has been bashing and snit-picking at Hillary all year long, as has most of the main stream media.
You went on for weeks about The Norman Hsu thing, in spite of the fact that Hsu was only a contributor and had NOTHING to do with her campaign. You never mentioned that Hsu was a contributor to Obama as well, and that he introduced Obama to one of the people currently working on his campaign.
You said almost NOTHING when Giuliani's South Carolina Campaign Chairman Tom Ravenal was busted on Federal drug trafficing charges, and you barely even made mention when Mitt Romney's National Fundraising Co-Chairman Alan Fabian was indicted on Federal Charges of money laundering.
You've reported NOTHING about Barrack Obama's close relationship with Antoin Rezko who is facing racketeering-like federal charges for shaking down campaign contributions from movie studios, and for taking kick-backs from companies that did construction work for the state of Illinois.
As if that's not enough, you then come off with THIS line...
"And given the UNLV venue, will Jerry Tarkanian or Larry Johnson be in attendance? Actually, that famous UNLV team could be a good metaphor. They seemed unbeatable until they met a more cerebral, though less talented, opponent. UNLV lost their undefeated season and the championship because they couldn't handle the pressure of a rare close game. Can Clinton handle the pressure now that she doesn't seem so inevitable....."
That isn't journalism, that's actively advocating the media and the other other candidates to pile it on Clinton.
What's Obama's plan to get us out of Iraq? I hear a lot of talk from him about how it's wrong to be there, but no substantive plan to leave. Why doesn't HE get called out on that? How come nobody asks about his ADMITTED use of cocaine?
How about John Edward's, what's HIS plan for Iraq? Again, I've heard NOTHING from him. But, NOBODY challenges him on it.
Why doesn't someone ask Kucinich who's been representing his district while he's been out running for President these last 4 or 5 years, and why he missed something like 13% of the votes in The House the last time he ran? Why doesn't he ever get asked why Cleveland almost went bankrupt when he was Mayor?
If any-one of those situations involved Hillary, it would be front page news.
How about a little fairness and accuracy in reporting guys (and gals). Don't just heap the dirty laundry list on Senator Clinton.....let's talk about the skeletons in EVERYONE's closet!

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

StopHillary before America Suffers — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 14:59:21 GMT

Say what you will about Matt Drudge and the Drudge Report, but he is right on target, He has the Clinton Camp on their fasttalking, evasive answers, toes.
I just hope he remains safe from the Clinton thugs machine. Clinton Hates Matt Drudge because he was the one that broke the Clinton/ Lewinsky sexual abuse scandal.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

MR, Seattle — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:01:35 GMT

The highlights since the last debate are polls showing Clinton losing ground, Obama gaining in IA and NH, Obama's INSPIRING speech at the J-J dinner and his STRONG performance on Meet the Press hours later.

Then there was last night, 6000 people paid to pack a hall in San Francisco to hear Obama. No other candidate nor spouse of a candidate could do that.

He's Fired Up and On a Roll!

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:01:55 GMT

Tuesday :: Nov 13, 2007
A Short History of Recent U.S. Presidential Politics - Part 1: Bringing Honesty and Integrity Back to the White House;

by eriposte

As we enter the next phase of the 2008 Presidential campaign, this is a good time to start observing how history has a habit of repeating itself. Looking back at the 2000 Presidential campaign, here's a key aspect of the history perfectly encapsulated in this comment in a discussion on a recent Vanity Fair article about the Goring of Al Gore in the 2000 election (bold text is my emphasis, throughout this post):

I remember a friend of mine, who was admittedly pretty young back in 2000, saying during the campaign that she couldn't really see many differences between Gore and Bush. I don't want you to get the impression that I have vacuous friends - the point I'm making is that people casually, peripherally informed about the race prior to the election were mostly getting (from the media) differences in style and tone from the two candidates, rather than differences in position. This attitude was very widespread, both among people I knew personally (and myself) and in some parts of the media. Both Bush and Gore were "political machine" candidates; neither of them seemed to bring anything new and different to the table."

It's a long two-parter, but essential reading for those too young, or not politically involved for the last two presidential elections.

http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/011328.php

Van

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Kevin Barnett, Memphis — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:03:35 GMT

I'm certain Team Clinton has briefed the panel on what they should ask her. Maybe she can wear a petticoat, and Bill can run in and rescue her when things go sour.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Flo Mottion — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:06:47 GMT

New ground rule for Hillary. During the debate, Bill gets to stand by her and hold her hand. Hillary also gets to refer to her 3x5 note cards if a question comes up that she doesn't understand.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:07:47 GMT

Thursday, November 15, 2007

Senator Hillary Clinton’s lead in Iowa has fallen seven points over the past few weeks. This is consistent with the six-point slide measured in New Hampshire.

The latest Rasmussen Reports poll of the Iowa Democratic Caucus for 2008 finds Clinton on top with support from 29% of Likely Caucus Participants. That’s down from 33% in mid-October.

Former North Carolina Senator John Edwards is supported by 25% and Illinois Senator Barack Obama attracts 21% of the Likely Caucus participants. For both men, those figures reflect a three-percentage point gain. New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson also gained three points and is now at 10% in the poll (see crosstabs).

Clinton-29
Edwards-25
Obama-21

Iowa is crazy to poll, but every poll this month has Hillary on top. I like the order of finish in this poll, and will be happy to see similar numbers on Jan 3rd.
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_2008__1/2008_presidential_election/iowa/democratic_iowa_caucus

Van

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:14:57 GMT

The Rasmussen Iowa totals should read;

Clinton-29
Edwards-25
Obama- 24

Van

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

George, Seattle — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:16:05 GMT

The driver's license is another of those silly distractions like gay marriage and late term abortions. The idea that it makes us any safer to require us to produce of citizenship to get a slip of paper that can be easily forged or stolen by bad guys does not hold water. This is just a further example of how we are using the fear of terrorism to further tighten the noose around our people.

I have also seen the argument that licenses should be withheld because illegal immegrants are violating the law, and thus don't deserve to be able to drive. How far are we willing to go with this argument? Child support is a major issue in this country, should we deny deadbeat dads a license? Kids who haven't registered for Selective Service? People who are behind on their taxes? The precedent to that kind of thinking is dangerous.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:26:28 GMT

The amount of, "Wishing and Hoping and Kneeling and Praying", disguised as political analysis and prognostication that goes on here from those not fortunate enough to be supporting the eventual nominee, is exceeded only by the level of animosity.

Van

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

J. Merle Stanley, Westchester, NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:28:14 GMT

Oh by the way jerry.....you need to quite worrying about Hillary and start defending the actions of yo' boy Giualiani.
Three different people associated with him personally, or his campaign have been indicted on Federal Charges just since June. Now we come to find that he leaned on Time Warner Cable to allow FAUX News on the air in NY after a judge said no.
Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.....Rudy appears more slimey everytime you turn around, and the fire and police department widows from 911, the firefighter's union, and the patrolmen's benevolent association haven't even spoken out yet!
Looks like the beginning of the end for "Gigolo Rudy 'G'".

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

George, Seattle — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:30:44 GMT

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

jerry/corpus christi texas — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:31:12 GMT

Don't just heap the dirty laundry list on Senator Clinton.....let's talk about the skeletons in EVERYONE's closet!

J. Merle Stanley, Westchester, NY (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 9:58 AM)

Well, Merle.....

Hillary did suggest that we have a conversation......

She brought all this upon herself.......

She finally came out with her stance on the drivers licenses....

If she would have answered the question the first time, we wouldn't be discussing her ability to be President....

But now that she has opened the door to speculation, all she did was create a firestorm........

Let this be a lesson to all candidates.....
If you are asked a question, you better not flip flop
you better not kowtow....
you better just answer the question......

Plus, as we all know......
The Clinton's bring all this to the table on their own.
from whitewater to threatening to shoot people who ask tough questions....
The Clinton's have a 100,000 sq ft closet to keep all their dirty laundry in.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:38:40 GMT

A hearty good-morning to the MSNBC politburo and censors! Will we be DELETING posts today or just censoring them before they're posted?

Van
(V is for...)

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Sierra, SF — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:39:16 GMT

Questions for Hillary Clinton:

What changed your mind on IDs for illegal immigrants?

At one point you supported IDs for illegals.
What caused you to change you position ?

What was the reasoning behind you new stance ?

If another state allowed IDs for illegal aliens would you support them unitl we have immigration reform ?

What is 'comprehensive immigration reform that deals with all of the issues around illegal immigration'?

What is your 'comprehensive immigration reform' ?

Does it include 'amnesty' for illegal immigrants ?

Does it include sending immigrants back to their home countires ?

Does it allow for immigrants to pick our crops ?

What are your proposals for 'comprehensive immigration reform' ?

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Joe Dirt — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:40:38 GMT

Hillary did suggest that we have a conversation......

Yup. She talks. We listen. That's called a Clinton Conversation.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:41:30 GMT

The Hillary supporter might want to include the rest of the Rasmussen poll:
George, Seattle (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:30 AM)

Posting the LINK to the story wasn't enough for you? If I posted the whole thing, there'd be complaints about how much space it took up. What do you think the link is FOR? A pretty blue thing to look at?

Van

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

yiannis, Baltimore — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:44:58 GMT

Wow, Clinton is trying to plant more questions. Their entitlement is going to be their undoing.

Plant-gate, will just not go away!

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Sierra, SF — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:46:14 GMT

Hillary Clinton, if you are elected President what are your top three priorities ?

What are your most improtant policies ?
Please be SPECIFIC ?

John Edwards, do you REALLY WANT THIS NOMINATION ?
It yours for the taking, tonight !
Be firm and insistent on honest answers !
If you ar, Hillary will implode !

Barack Obama, will you move out of your comfort zone>
You have to, to change this race !
Find out what Hillary stands for !
Show us the differences between you and Hillary !

Heaven help us !

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:46:25 GMT

The 2 Iowa numbers that matter:

Hillary blows Edwards and Obama away when likely caucus goers are asked who is most able to step in and lead as President on the first day of their administration.

When asked who has the best chance to win the general they say Clinton again.

That is ballgame right there folks.

Iowa voters will for electability just like last time when they liked Dean but decided he couldn't make a run against Bush.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:47:16 GMT

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Stu, Saginaw, MI — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:47:29 GMT

FIRST READ:

Once again, I'm terribly disappointed with your "snarky" use of the "question mark". I think you should totally eschew the use of it!

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:51:39 GMT

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

I'm for Fred — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:56:16 GMT

I'm with Micheal from St.Louis - 3rd party candidates don't have a chance and they just mess up an election. Perot is the reason we had Clinton in the first place.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Sierra, SF — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 15:56:33 GMT

diane: '...With Clinton it is always mulitiple and vague positions and flip flopping. That shows a deep character flaw and deceit on her end. You cannot respect a person who has not the character to stand by a position, popular or not.
And Obama was absolutely right the other night. She doesn't take a position because it may not be popular and she thinks she is owed this presidency...'

diane, thae race has changed since the other candidates started pointing this out.
It's the responsibility of Obama and Edwards to point this out, tonight.
The flip flopping, the ambiguity, the evasiveness.

Had they done this FROM THE BEGINNING, Hillary would have evaporated.
From the beginning, Hillary has said their stands on Iraq 'are the same' !!
Nobody challenged her on that !!
tonight's the night !!

I'm all fired up !!

TURN THE PAGE

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Sierra, SF — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:03:40 GMT

J. Merle Stanley, Westchester, NY: '...Don't just heap the dirty laundry list on Senator Clinton.....let's talk about the skeletons in EVERYONE's closet!...'

Sorry, Merle but Hillary is the one with the ethical questions.
Nobody else COMPARES to Hillary !!
Scandals are always bubbling around Hillary.

Whitewater, Travelgate, Monica, Buddhist monks, 'pay to play', media monopoly, the pardons....

And now, a whole new set of scandal.....
Planted questions, Peter Paul, Norman Hsu, evasiveness......

Hillary's character is the issue, Merle
She's responsible for 15 years of dishonesty, scandals and divisiveness.....

Hillary Clinton, cold, calculating, dishonest and unethical

(other than that, a great candidate)

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

MikeCasselberry, Fla — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:07:16 GMT

Excuse me, Before 911 who was the great hero of Amnesty? Wasn,t it a Rep. named Ronald Reagan! And also wasn,t it the Business comm. that was exploiting these people.Who were the Gov,s. of these southern states? Calif, New Mexico, Arizona, Texas? Well? Reagan,Richarson,McCain,Bush! So when the Rep blame for illegals, I guess they better look at the record 3 Rep and one Democrat. Also all was quiet on the southern border untill 911.Now it becomes a hot button issue because of border security and How fast did Bush react to this with all his victrola of Mushroo clouds well according to the GAO, well according to their report they brought in enough stuff to cause problems for some time to come. But looking at the overall illegal that have come across the border before 911 they weren,t the problem, it was a Majority in the Congress of Republicans who drop the ball on this one not Hillary! Give me a brake about this Driver Lic. issue, This is something out of pre war Germany with scapegoating except instead of jews it,s Mexican. Were a nation of laws but from time to time the Rep forget this when it comes to their pocketbooks via Corruption in Wash. As for McCain maybe the one,s bitterly jawing about Mexican should hold up signs we he comes to town that reads NO IRISH NEED APPLY! maybe that reminder will give to pause for thinking out a reasonable compromize on immigration. Thier is no prefect solution.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:10:13 GMT

Arg Poll numbers Iowa (Sept. and Oct. in parens)

Clinton-27(30,32)
Obama- 21(24,22)
Edwards-20(19,15)

http://americanresearchgroup.com/pres08/iadem8-712.html

Van

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:12:41 GMT

More from the ARG poll. To the Clinton haters;
Why is her support so SOLID compared to the others?

* 44% of likely caucus participants are undecided (10%) or say that they could switch candidates between now and January 3 (34%).
* 92% of those saying they support Clinton say their support is definite.
* 50% of those saying they support Edwards say their support is definite.
* 41% of those saying they support Obama say their support is definite.
* 67% of those saying they support Richardson say their support is definite.
* Among men, Clinton is at 23%, Edwards 20%, and Obama 20%.
* Among women, Clinton is at 31%, Obama 21%, and Edwards 20%."

NINETY-TWO percent of her support is DEFINITE.

Van

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

pat huntington ny — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:12:59 GMT

You know Jerry can't wait for the debate to be on TV tonight so he can salivate over the image of the love of his life...Hillary.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

HillaryIStheONE, Buford, Georgia — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:13:20 GMT

Hillary is an intelligent woman with guts. That scares the hell out of you guys who THINK you are so smart. She puts 85% of the men I read on these boards to SHAME. It's not her philosophies and ideals that you guys have a problem with is it? Let's be truthful here. You are fearful of having a WOMAN in power. Talk about a "flip-flop" then...if we DON'T elect Hillary in 2008, we may as well totally and completely forget about being a world power because she IS our last hope. I see everyone pulling bits and pieces, out of context but if you look at the whole picture (if you can) you will surely see that she is the ONE we need.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Grace, — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:13:35 GMT

The Hillary supporter might want to include the rest of the Rasmussen poll:

When only voters who are “certain” they will participate in the caucus are included in the totals, the race is a dead-heat: 26% for Clinton, 26% for Edwards, and 26% for Obama (see discussion of methodology).

George, Seattle (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:30 AM)

Van...this is why you are as disliked and ignored as the disingenious candidate you support. You lame excuse for cherry picking the information is exactly in line with your candidate also. You both are disgusting and I am embarrassed as a democrat that either of you are in the party.

Edwards isn't the only person who can't stomach the idea of having Hillary represent the democratic party. John...count me in too.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

gregory chase taos new mexico — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:14:25 GMT

who will be Hillarys V.P.? who would take the job? With Bill as Acting ambassador at large, acting sec. of state, and her closest advisor,the era of a strong V.P.,from Mondale,to Gore,nevermind Cheney will be over.Heads of state might call the White House and simply say,"Let me speak to Bill".

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Tofun,Disney — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:20:20 GMT

What did Barak do with his papers?

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Lyn, MD — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:20:31 GMT

The Clinton's have a 100,000 sq ft closet to keep all their dirty laundry in.

jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:31 AM)

Whereas we could take all of your integrity, put it in a thimble and still have room for you compassion and intellect.

Van
vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:51 AM)

VAn...For the most part I have decided to either try and be civil or ignore you...doesn't matter much to me which...however ,you are the last person on this site to lecture anyone on integrity. Think about it.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Barbara C., Pompano Beach, FL — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:23:28 GMT

If Hillary were smart...she would say..."I made a mistake, and I have learned from my mistake and this is my position, and from now, I will answer the questions fully." Hillary Team...if you are reading this....

From blundering best friends running for Homeland Security, to waffling on Abortion to standing behind someone with a 24% approval rating...have not the Republicans made any mistakes? OOPS -- but since the entire Mainstream Media is positively fawning over Rudy, I guess not.

Call me crazy, but I am still an idealist looking for a President who does not want to turn this country into a Police State.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Ron, TX — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:25:00 GMT

Judgment is better than experience with world affairs. You can have all of the experience in the world, and still make incorrect decisions. I think Hillary Clinton is the perfect example of that. When she voted in favor of the Iraq war, she had, using her own numbers, somewhere around "30" years of experience. Her judgment was flawed, and she allowed herself to be douped by Bush, and by her lacking ability to JUDGE the data the US had. Barack Obama, on the other hand, got it 100% correct. In a speech in October of 2002, he said:
"I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.

I am not opposed to all wars. I’m opposed to dumb wars."

She has "more experience" playing dirty politics. She has more experience being bought by health care lobbyists. She has more experience planting questions to try and make herself look better. She has more experience not taking a stand on issues. She has more experience not answering hard questions.

Barack Obama's judgment is uncompromised. Uncompromised judgment beats BAD experience any time. Everyone remember what Bill Clinton said back in 1992? The demi-god of democrats himself... Back when people were saying HE didn't have EXPERIENCE?
"The same old experience is not relevant: You can have the right kind of experience and the wrong kind of experience," -- Bill Clinton.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Ron, TX — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:33:41 GMT

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

HillaryHater — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:37:24 GMT

If the clintons are REFUSING to release papers now, can you imagine how it will be when Hillary is Impeached LMAO

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

lance — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:38:19 GMT

Condi Rice, both a black and a woman, wouldn't think about complaining over 'tough questions,' or having to give 'real answers.' She has my vote.

EXACTLY why this boy made America's only politically CONSERVATIVEW music CD--11 tracks of conservative facts. Just in time for Christmas (for you 'progressives,' that would be the 'winter holiday') Listen @

www.conservativemusiconline.com

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

mary Davenport Iowa — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:54:54 GMT

owa is crazy to poll, but every poll this month has Hillary on top. I like the order of finish in this poll, and will be happy to see similar numbers on Jan 3rd.

Van,

Fortunately you won't be happy on the 3rd. Iowans aren't stupid!

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Cedric, Charlotte — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 16:57:20 GMT

Sierra-

Love your enthusiasm. I'm with you. No matter who you support, we deserve clear answers on the issues so we the people can choose who we want. I actually like Hill and might vote for her (if Obama or Biden isn't the Dem nom and Mccain and Huckabee aren't choices on the R side). But I feel Hill has tried to be a Manchurian candidate. What do you stand for, what do you believe, and let us decide. Don't try to fool us. I know it's what pols do, but it's time out for that crap. That's why I appreciate Edwards, Obama, and esp. Mccain's candor (despite his unfortunate initial MLK holiday vote and initial wishy washy confed flag stand.) Sometimes decent people don't want for the country what the country wants for itself. Don't be so married to being a pol that you try to fool us into voting for you. BTW, I'm an independent who's voted for each party (and Nader).

If you're a smart person you know a Clinton will drop a bomb or send in a strike just about as quick as any Repub. Dems- Is that what you guys want? Esp. young, far-left Dems. Is he the liberal idealist I get the sense you guys long for. Ms. Fairly Conventional Wisdom? The Dems have to decide between starting the old vet or the young draft picks. All this, and Biden's probably your choice in another era. I hope he makes some noise in Iowa.

one more thing- surprised Obama hasn't caught more flak for admitting on Meet the Press that he wasn't anti-war at the '04 basically because that wasn't the time or place, he was on the docket to speak and he didn't want to criticize the nominees of his party (that is, i'm going to run one day and I can't p- off the leadership.) I understand it politically, but I wonder how that washes w/ the avg. Dem.

Tonight it is on! I'm excited. Expect Hill to have some stuff to throw at Obama this time. Expect Edwards, the most articulate Clinton critic, to have his ducks in a row, and expect Obama to take a slightly less circuitous route to criticizing Clinton leaving Edwards to do the dirtiest work (again.) There almost seems to be some understanding between Obama and Edwards about this whole thing...maybe because they're not very distinguishable on several issues.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Ravine Force, Kissimmee, FL — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:01:17 GMT

When it comes to which candidate delivered a punch in the last debate; I sincerely believe that Mr. Edwards was the one who was willing to take on Mrs. Clinton. Hover, it has been twisted in such a way that it is as if Obama was the one who was the aggressor. Kind of funny, isn't it?

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Walter Eggert — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:01:55 GMT

Let's hope that the Clinton successfully strong-arm the CNN-moderators in preparation for tonight's debate. Republicans are rooting for Hillary, and not Edwards or Richardson, to win the Democratic nod. The general population hates her duplicity and arrogance. She will lose the geneeral elections by a landslide.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

karlos — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:11:23 GMT

folks we're debating electing a pres. not a governor or congressman. the domestic agenda is decided by congress and to secure demo values in 08' we need the trifecta win[house,senate,pres.] the pres. doesn't control any bill or budget other than power of veto so what ever the minor domestic variances are on domestic issues between the candidates they'll be hammered out in congress and committee. nobody's position on that platform on any domestic issue will pass as is in tact thru congress but be compromised to reflect composit values of demos with trifecta. the foreign affairs and incursions are another matter. the debate should center on these issues as the president can get us in without congress approval. this is bidens fortee and his experience and foresight elevate him above the lightweights on the platform tonight. he has the only iraq plan passed and saw pakistan problem coming. that,s presidential folks.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Molly, Iowa City — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:12:34 GMT

Iowa voters will for electability just like last time when they liked Dean but decided he couldn't make a run against Bush.

Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC

Like always non-Iowans have no clue about what Iowans thought in 04, or think now. Iowans didn't like Dean but vote for Kerry. The number of "I voted Dean but married Kerry" was actually very small. Also, while polls in Iowa are a joke because they don't sample actual likely caucus goers from prior caucus attendance but random registered voters. Even with the scientifically invalid Iowa polling Dean's finally caucus support (18%) was actually within the margin of error in all of the "Iowa polls" the Des Moines Register's trademark poll. Also in polling how those surveyed viewed the candidates Dean never was ahead of Kerry in favorability. I have the hard copies of the 8/3/03, 11/9/03, and 1/17/04 "Iowa Polls" in front of me. In each poll Kerry combined favorable (both very favorable and mostly favorable) were ahead of Dean's. Only in the August 3rd poll was Dean's very favorable 1% higher (27% vs. 26%) than Kerry's, but Kerry was still ahead in total favorability because his mostly favorable was 8% higher (Kerry 42% mostly favorable and Dean 34%) Dean's very unfavorable also was always higher than Kerry's. In both the August and January poll Dean's very unfavorable was twice Kerry's.

And Iowans do care about the ability to win the general election, and regardless of national polls or polls that are predominantly of non caucus goers, most Iowa caucus goers are concerned with Hillary's ability to win the general election.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark, Des Moines — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:14:32 GMT

Whereas we could take all of your integrity, put it in a thimble and still have room for you compassion and intellect.

Van

I rarely agree with Hillary's biggest backer, but your dead on here! Thanks for making me laugh!

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

CitizenJ — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:17:05 GMT

Putting out an APB for anyone at MSNBC who can moderate these boards. Can't you get an intern or something to take care of these things?

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Paula, Maine — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:20:39 GMT

George, Seattle

The State of Maine does deny and take back driver and other licenses of deadbeat dad's. It does get their attention.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Kristian O — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:23:58 GMT

So much for Edwards being out of the race and that having money problems will hurt him. Wants to hear no bawling when the the chalk gets beaten by the longshot.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

CitizenJ — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:28:19 GMT

"Hillary is an intelligent woman with guts. That scares the hell out of you guys who THINK you are so smart. She puts 85% of the men I read on these boards to SHAME. It's not her philosophies and ideals that you guys have a problem with is it? Let's be truthful here. You are fearful of having a WOMAN in power. Talk about a "flip-flop" then...if we DON'T elect Hillary in 2008, we may as well totally and completely forget about being a world power because she IS our last hope. I see everyone pulling bits and pieces, out of context but if you look at the whole picture (if you can) you will surely see that she is the ONE we need."

HillaryIStheONE, Buford, Georgia (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:13 AM)

I thought we were through with this nonsense. Hillary puts 85% of the men on this board to shame? What percent of women? I'm guessing that less than 15% of anyone on this board (men and women) didn't attend Yale Law, so if that is what you are getting at, then yes, Hillary does put us to shame. And so does Obama (he went to Harvard Law).

I don't really know what you mean by a "world power". That is a rather generic term. There are lots of "world powers", and we will be one regardless of who is elected president. The only thing in question will be our place amongst them. I'm glad you have so much confidence that being a woman is what will allow Hillary to keep us where we are.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Lisa, Fort Worth TX — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:29:31 GMT

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:34:37 GMT

Van...this is why you are as disliked and ignored as the disingenious candidate you support. You lame excuse for cherry picking the information is exactly in line with your candidate also. You both are disgusting and I am embarrassed as a democrat that either of you are in the party.

Edwards isn't the only person who can't stomach the idea of having Hillary represent the democratic party. John...count me in too.

Grace, (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:13 AM)

Yes, I am, "Ignored". Do you know what ignored means?
It means that no one pays attention to you. I didn't ignore your brilliant post Grace. You sure didn't cherry-pick that one...
Grace, NY: '...Van...thought I'd help you out

Poll: Obama, Clinton Virtually Tied
Web Editor: Michael King
Last Modified: 11/12/2007 10:25:12 PM...'

I never got to thank you for, "Helping me out."
Aren't you the Grace who posted the SIX MONTH OLD POLL before you knew if it was TRUE or not?
I posted the link in the post, and you are as wrong as you were to post that poll as you are to accuse me of all people of cherry-picking facts or polls. I have consistently, without FAIL posted the links to any information I post.
I am, as you say, disliked, because HILLARY is disliked, and in the lead and on her way to the nomination and the presidency, and it KILLS you and all those like you you harbor an irrational hatred for her to see her STILL leading everywhere despite your daily attacks and spurious claims that the tide has turned.
If I posted something as quickly discredited as your blunder, YOU would be among the first to mention it. As it is you posted your hoax and then ran away only to return as if nothing had happened.
When someone with ZERO credibility like you Grace attacks mine, it's a compliment. Your use of language indicates a limited vocabulary and your tone indicates an emotional age of about 12. Now go find some stale old polls to post that we can all get a good laugh over.

Van

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Phil Wortman, Green Bay WI — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:35:55 GMT

Hillary is an intelligent woman with guts. <<<<

Proof please.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Blanche Seewell, Big Rapids MI — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:38:39 GMT

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Rose, Georgia — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:45:47 GMT

I wonder if CNN will bring up Obama's poor attendance record in the senate. He has the highest percentage of missed votes in the senate. I think it's interesting that he has repeatedly criticized Clinton on her Iran vote, and yet he wasn't even there that day to place his vote. If it is such an important issue, why didn't he make it a priority to be there?

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Dozirulf, Youngstown, OH — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:50:55 GMT

I'll bet Edwards makes the first planted question crack.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:52:51 GMT

For all the Hillary & Barack supporters:

This is what JUDGMENT and EXPERIENCE look like in a candidate.

Joe Biden's Senate career per Sourcewatch:

Biden is a long-time member of the Senate Committee on the Judiciary, which he chaired from 1987 until 1995 and served as ranking minority member from 1981 until 1987 and again from 1995 until 1997. In this capacity, he has become one of the most respected Senate voices on drug policy, crime prevention, and civil liberties. While chairman, Biden presided over two of the more contentious U.S. Supreme Court confirmation hearings ever, Robert Bork in 1987 and Clarence Thomas in 1991.
Biden has been instrumental in crafting significant federal crime laws over the last decade, including the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994, also known as the Biden Crime Law. He also authored the landmark Violence Against Women Act of 2000, which contains a broad array of groundbreaking measures to combat domestic violence and provides billions of dollars in federal funds to address gender-based crimes
Biden served as the chairman of the International Narcotics Control Caucus, Biden wrote the laws that created the nation's "Drug Czar," who oversees and coordinates national drug control policy.
Staunchly supportive of education, Biden's legislation has promoted college aid and loan programs and has allowed families to deduct on their annual income-tax returns up to $10,000 per year in higher-education expenses. His enacted Kids 2000 legislation which established a public/private partnership to help provide computer centers, teachers, Internet access, and technical training to young people across the nation, particularly to low-income and at-risk youth.
Biden's expertise in foreign policy, national security, and arms control issues has won him considerable bipartisan respect. In 1997, he became the ranking minority member of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations and chaired the committee from June 2001 through 2003. His efforts to combat hostilities in the Balkans in the 1990s brought national attention and influenced presidential policy: traveling repeatedly to the region, he made one meeting famous by calling Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic a "war criminal." He consistently argued for lifting the arms embargo, training Bosnian Muslims, investigating war crimes and administering NATO air strikes. Biden's subsequent "lift and strike" resolution was instrumental in convincing President Bill Clinton to use military force in the face of systematic human rights violations.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

J. Merle Stanley, Westchester, NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:55:48 GMT

Plus, as we all know......
The Clinton's bring all this to the table on their own.
from whitewater to threatening to shoot people who ask tough questions....
".....The Clinton's have a 100,000 sq ft closet to keep all their dirty laundry in.
jerry/corpus christi texas (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 10:31 AM)....."

Better quiet down with the sacandal talk jerry.....Gigolo Rudy 'G' has a few problems of his own to deal with now.
I wonmer if Rudy will be called to testify at either Kerik's criminal trial or his civil trial.
I'll betcha' a dollar right here and now that he's called to at least one of them

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

jerry/corpus christi texas — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:56:45 GMT

Jerry, you've stated your 2 candidates are Mitt and Rudy. Were you behind Mitt before he flipped, or after he flopped? And since you harp constantly on Hillary's connection to shady dealings, how do you defend the scandals to which Guiliani is allegedly connected?

Lisa, Fort Worth TX (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 12:29 PM)

You use the word "alleged". There is a fine line between what Rudy allegedly is doing and What Hillary has done. With the problems with Chinese dishwashers and Chinese moneybundlers, we have all seen this before; back in 1996 during Bill Clinton's second run for President. Hillary has been named, her fingerprints are all over the problem. I haven't seen the media stories about Rudy; could there be a bias? He is connected to Bernard Kerik or whathisname is. But there is no proof of him doing anything as far as what he did. Every candidate; from Obama to Hillary to Rudy to Fred has had some shady people. Fred and Rudy have cut their ties to the shady people. Hillary still has them in her campaign (Sandy Berger). She supposedly has given back the money that Norman Hsu raised for her, yet there is another bundler (Mauricio Celis) who is a boat load of trouble and if the grand jury announces it's verdict here today, Hillary's name will be coming back out under people who are criminals. By the way, I have not seen the charity that Hillary gave back Norman's Hsu's money to; Have you? If Rudy has some dirty laundry that was worth something, don't you think it would be all over the media right now? And this is supposed to be the liberal's best friend; the media today. But it seems that Hillary and her past supplies the juiciest stories.

As far as flip flopping, yes Mitt has made some mistakes early on and has fixed a few of them. However, I have not seen anything like that from Hillary Clinton. OK, she FINALLY came out about illegal's and drivers licenses; Why didn't she give a straight answer at the last debate? If she had just stopped taking both sides of the issue and just been honest, it would probably be game over. But NOOOOOO, she had to play the gender card, her stupid husband had to get involved and now it looks like she cannot defend herself against the simple questions, yet alone the tough questions. Mitt has had everything thrown at him from abortion to being a Mormon to tying down the dog carrier to his rooftop to beauty creams. Yet he seems to be gaining and climbing.

You liberals are so blinded by your hate for President Bush, you would vote for anybody no matter how sordid their past is. A few of you are just voting for her just because she is a woman. The other liberal candidates are debating the issues and coming out with ideas. I don't see that from Hillary at all. What is her stance on Social Security? Never mind all she suggested is a panel to study; what does she think? She never tells you and you are supposed to be voting for people who have answers. Hillary has no answers and as long as she hides behind her husband and says "elect me because I am a woman", she will never get to the White House. All you liberals that are voting for Hillary are doing is guranteeing that Rudy or Mitt or Fred will be in the White House on January 20 2009. And when that happens, I predict the democratic party will seperate itself from the DailyKOS morons and Moveon.org people and go back to what the democratic party originally stood for.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:58:41 GMT

Van:

Doesn't it say something about your candidate that you have to defend her so often? I am sure you can see that at least half of the people responding to this post don't support her. I will wait for the exact total from you (unless it doesn't favor Hillary).

Often I have asked you for some examples of Hillary's accomplishments. Polls are not accomplishments.

I ask again that you provide examples rather than polls. Show me the issues and causes she expends her political capital on.

Waiting.....

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Dave, New York, NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:59:26 GMT

There's one reason Hillary changed her mind on immigration reform ... Obama. If you look at the national polls, the vast majority of voters didn't agree with Spitzer's plan. Yet in the last debate both Hillary and Obama seemed to back it. By now saying that she is against it, she aligns herself with the voting majority and gives herself a point of attack on Obama. She may spin it as "being receptive to the will of those she will serve" or some crap like that. Watch for it in this debate.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

J. Merle Stanley, Westchester, NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:05:00 GMT

".....And now, a whole new set of scandal.....
Planted questions, Peter Paul, Norman Hsu, evasiveness......

Hillary's character is the issue, Merle
She's responsible for 15 years of dishonesty, scandals and divisiveness....."
Sierra, SF (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:03 AM)

ahh sierra, look again cupcake.....
Obama not only wrote a book about himself ("Dreams fom My Father") in which he admitted to using marijuana and cocaine, but he also says the only reason he didn't use heroin is because he didn't like the pusher who was selling it.
Not only that.....
BUT...Barack Obama has been friends with Antoin ("Tony") Rezko since at least 1990. Rezko offered him a job in the early 1990s (declined), and has raised at least $60,000 for Obama's campaigns. In return, Barack arranged an internship in 2005 for John Aramanda, the son of a Rezko business associate (Joseph Aramanda, who himself gave Barack $11,500.)
There's more. In June, 2005, Obama bought a house in Chicago for $1.65 million. The same day, Rezko bought the vacant lot next door for $625,00. Seven months later, Rezko sold Barack a slice (1/6th) of his lot so the Obamas could have a bigger yard. There's no evidence that Rezko bought the vacant land for any other reason than to do Obama a favor.
The problem with all this, is that Rezko is under indictment in a federal government corruption case for demanding kickbacks from companies wanting to do business with Illinois Governor Blagojevich, another politician that Rezko has befriended and donated to. (Rezko is also under indictment for shaking down a Hollywood producer for $1.5 million in campaign contributions for Blagojevich. The guy takes care of his friends.) In fact, Joseph Aramanda is an unindicted co-conspirator in one of the kickback cases.
I hate to break it to you sierra, but it would appear that 'Lil Barracky" is not as pure and wholesome as you and others would have us believe.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

docrock,tx — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:05:28 GMT

Even thogh I am a Biden supporter,(or McCain in a pinch),I have heard a rumor that there are sixty lobbyists for every Washington official,and if this is true,I suppose the election is allready decided.Can anyone verify this statistic from the BBC?If true,our only option is to vote everyone out in the next two election cycles.Clinton,Obama,and Edwards are pathetic,Kucinich is nuts,and Dodd is irrelevant.This is pathetic.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:06:09 GMT

I get email...

A friend writes, "...have you become so cynical that no candidate could possibly please you?"

The point is well taken. In some way or another, each Democratic candidate brings necessary strengths to the table.

I just no longer idealize politicians, candidates, or presidents.

I work for one I admire (mostly). I would accept any legitimate Democrat in order to retrieve our nation from the Gates of Bush/Cheney Hell.

Having said that again, it is apparent to me that the process of running for office leaves a stain on the soul of just about anyone I have known.

Ultimately, none of the bastards are worthy to guide and nurture the Great Cause that is America.

I really loved Jimmy Carter until I got to know the sanctimonious prig. His ideals were immaculate, his personality was all the charm of prunes for breakfast.

That very righteous personality kept him from being a competent leader. He is a good man without a lot of self-reflection or humor.

I was wild about Bill until I saw him close up. Charming, ah yes! A self-infatuated infant, ah there was the rub. Brilliant? Absolutely. Foolish... well you know.

Yet Clinton was nonetheless a great president.

Bush you could have a beer with, but he would get s--tfaced and vomit on you. And he has, and ever more shall, in perpetuity.

Presidents are great only in retrospect. Most of the time they bumble along like the rest of us, but most of them have better poker faces.

Vote for chumminess and get the drunken AWOL air guard guy.

Vote for ideals and get the First Puritan off the Mayflower.

Besides, my deepest intuition is that none of vote our minds any more since we are told what to think every minute. We vote other people's minds and and I say in that regard we don't have a lot to choose from.

We do, I hope, have a choice between psychotic Strangeloves and and double-talking liberal capitalists. Go for the gobblety-gook. It's important

Which reminds me that the most honest came campaign I ever saw was run by the famously crooked Governor Edwin Edwards of Louisiana a few years back. His slogan, running against David Duke the malevolent Klansman, was, and I quote, "VOTE FOR THE CROOK! IT'S IMPORTANT!"

Now there's an inspirational thought for the day.

What? Me cynical?

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

jerry/corpus christi texas — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:08:55 GMT

You know Jerry can't wait for the debate to be on TV tonight so he can salivate over the image of the love of his life...Hillary.

pat huntington ny (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:12 AM)

That's why god invented TIVO.....
Some of us have to work for a living.........

Love of my life LOL.....
Got rid of one flip flopping woman......
married a sensible woman.....
She would destroy Hillary in the debate, so badly, Bill would get his butt whipped too if he got in the way......

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

LT — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:16:57 GMT

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

jerry/corpus christi texas — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:17:11 GMT

Elizabeth in San Diego:

perhaps I can help you since Van cannot.....

Here is a list of what she has done in the US Senate:

In five years as the most influential Democrat in the Senate, Hillary has managed to get the following laws and resolutions enacted:

• Establish the Kate Mullany National Historic Site

• Support the goals and ideals of Better Hearing and Speech Month

• Recognize the Ellis Island Medal of Honor

• Name courthouse after Thurgood Marshall

• Name courthouse after James L. Watson

• Name post office after John A. O'Shea

• Designate August 7, 2003, as National Purple Heart Recognition Day

• Support the goals and ideals of National Purple Heart Recognition Day

• Honor the life and legacy of Alexander Hamilton on the bicentennial of his death

• Congratulate the Syracuse University Orange Men's Lacrosse Team on winning the championship.

• Congratulate the Le Moyne College Dolphins Men's Lacrosse Team on winning the championship

• Establish the 225th Anniversary of the American Revolution Commemorative Program

• Name post office after Sergeant Riayan A. Tejeda

• Honor Shirley Chisholm for her service to the nation and express condolences on her death

• Honor John J. Downing, Brian Fahey, and Harry Ford, firefighters who lost their lives on duty.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Steve Shute, Gardner, KS — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:18:52 GMT

I think that this country might just have a chance if the Democratic nominee is somehow Barack Obama and the Republican nominee is somehow Ron Paul. Other than that, this country is in serious trouble.

At least these two have shown that they can be trusted, and that they stand by their principles. Other than Dennis Kucinich on the Dem side, I don't see another candidate out there that doesn't change their positions every time the wind shifts.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

HMT-MI — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:25:04 GMT

Edwards or hillary are just fine with me.I think Hanity is hilarious and a big scairdy cat the way he goes after Hillary,Edwards and Obama.He has introduced Rudy at many fundraisers and probably has a position all picked (gift from Rudy).He even defends kerik---shows how far they will go to run this country.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

coolio — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:27:30 GMT

Van is a Mark Penn. Drudge has reported anyone using stats on various political blogs are indeed paid employees of the Clinton Machine. Just kidding. Polls don't mean a thing at this point. I think it is fair to report that the polls do not include cell phone users (youngsters that support Obama). That could be the difference in Iowa.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Travis, Louisville, Ky — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:36:45 GMT

Hey everyone, guess what! Apparently being ahead of everyone running for President, male or female, democrat or republican means Hillary is toast. I'm so glad that logic makes sense.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Jenny Evans, Watkinsville Georgia — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:39:12 GMT

Jerry, who said Hillary doesn't have what it takes to debate a man. I can't wait till tonight. I think you'll have to eat those words. Jenny in Georgia

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:43:01 GMT

I ask again that you provide examples rather than polls. Show me the issues and causes she expends her political capital on.

Waiting.....

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 12:58 PM)

It says more about the fringe minority of attackers than it does about Clinton. The tactic of asking Clinton supporters for reasons for their support as a jumping off point for a new series of attacks is a well established and tired fact of the campaign, and one I stopped falling for awhile ago.

If you want to know why the MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of Clinton supporters who will be going to the voting booths in the next few months to sweep her to the nomination and the presidency will be doing so, you could take the time to find out on your own. It wouldn't be hard, she is the most studied analyzed and written about woman in America since Eleanor Roosevelt. You will have plenty of time between when she clinches the nomination (in March.), the conventions and the general election to complete your studies.

Perhaps you would like tell me why one of over 2,000 state senators, or a former one term US senator and VP candidate who failed to take his home state in a general election against an unpopular President is a better more qualified choice?

I don't ask Obama or Edwards or Biden or any supporters of any other candidate to answer those questions because the reason why someone believes in a particular candidate is PERSONAL, (as are MANY of the attacks posted here) and I am concerned enough to check out the candidates myself.

I am often the object of many requests and the target of many barbs because I support Clinton, but as there have been a couple of recurring accusations today about cherry-picking data and integrity, (From one person who's obsessed with a Hillary website they have REPEATEDLY accused me of working for, and another who derided me with a poll that turned out to be from last JUNE.) on my part, it's interesting to note that almost all of my posts are in SUPPORT of my candidate and not AGAINST anyone else's. How many of my detractors can make that same claim for themselves?

Van

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Sierra, SF — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:45:42 GMT

vanreuter, NY NY: '...Posting the LINK to the story wasn't enough for you? If I posted the whole thing, there'd be complaints about how much space it took up. What do you think the link is FOR? A pretty blue thing to look at?...'

Calm down, van
It's been a tough few weeks for Team Hillary
It's gonna be OK....
I thought you were returning to your home planet, van

What happened ?
You said you were leaving us...
How can I miss you if you won't go away, van ?
Just when you morphed into tofun,disney.....

Stu, Saginaw, MI: '...Once again, I'm terribly disappointed with your "snarky" use of the "question mark". I think you should totally eschew the use of it!...'

eschew obsfucation, huh van ?
Your alter-ego (and I do mean ego) is still here van ?
Weren't you gonna take him to a higher plane on the Clinton DeathStar ?

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

jerry/corpus christi texas — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 18:47:55 GMT

Jerry, who said Hillary doesn't have what it takes to debate a man. I can't wait till tonight. I think you'll have to eat those words. Jenny in Georgia

Jenny Evans, Watkinsville Georgia (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 1:39 PM)

Being the betting man that I am.......
I'd have to say she will have no choice but to go after everybody in order to survive......

I say she will flub and fail........
Unless Bill is standing next to her.........

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:04:05 GMT

Those who say Hillary can't beat various Republican candidates because of the negativity factor need to remember that the GOP has essentially lost the base in this one.

The base being mal-educated, Bible-thumping, racist homophobes.

The Karl Rove 25% is all over the place in this election. When the dude from the 700 Club endorsed Guiliani, well that was the death-knell for the folks with a lot of missing teeth and fried brain cells.

Any Democrat who loses to any of these these born losers the Republicans have scraped off the bathroom floor should be tried and sentenced for treason to these United States.

Hillary can win.

Obama can win.

Edwards can win.

Any of the rest... ditto

except

Kucinich can't.

There's your choices, all wrapped up and ready to boogie (except Kucinich, of course).

Let's get together and get to work.

We have a nation to recover from the ashes.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Keith, Saginaw Michigan — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:23:50 GMT

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:28:11 GMT

BTW...

Let Ron Paul run as an Independent.

Throw in Mayor Bloomberg and make it a poker game.

That well may happen and needs to be factored into any Democratic national campaign strategy.

Forget the polls, the demographics will kill 'em.

Either or both seal the deal for the Democratic candidate, especially Hillary.

So, anybody who wants to drain Republican votes 2-1 over Democratic votes lost... we'll see that bet and go all in.

If Democrats lose this one, I'll join the Whigs.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Gragg — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:28:58 GMT

Why drivers' licenses for illegal immigrants? Just another scam by democrats to open the door to voter fraud. Oh they would love to have a perfect way to get millions of illegal votes with no way to track the vote. Motor voter laws would let millions if illegal’s to register to vote and they know they would vote democrat. Have you noticed that every election there is always voter fraud stories and disenfranchise stories and it is always democrats doing the complaining and doing the fraud?

I am getting tired of same old same old, the last five presidential elections: Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush, and for the sixth straight presidential election you people want another Clinton. Maybe after Ms Clinton two terms someone from the Bush family will run. I do not believe that there are only a few people with the talent to be president and there last name must be Bush or Clinton.

The reason I do not want Clinton as president I can not stand to look at her and hear that terrible voice everyday for the next 8 years. If she becomes president we all will be force to relive all the scandals and garbage that the Clintons always bring with them. Bill did this Hillary did that Bill did this Hillary did that and on and on and on. Than will drive the country crazy.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

MK,MO — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:33:12 GMT

Mark Thieme / hillary can't win the general election, obama nor edwards commands the hatred of the masses like the hillary, a look through any blog will confirm that, or just ask someone.

mention edwards or obama you get some people that would rather have a different candidate, maybe.

mention hillary and peoples heads spin round, profanity comes forth, guns are drawn, lives lost, not the same thing my friend.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:34:38 GMT

Fortunately you won't be happy on the 3rd. Iowans aren't stupid!

mary Davenport Iowa (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:54 AM)

I'll be flying home from warmer climes to celebrate Hillary's victory that day, because as you so aptly stated, "Iowans aren't stupid", Nor are the folks in New Hampshire, Nevada, South Carolina...

Van

Van

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Sierra. SF — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:40:23 GMT

Cedric, Charlotte: '...Tonight it is on! I'm excited. Expect Hill to have some stuff to throw at Obama this time. Expect Edwards, the most articulate Clinton critic, to have his ducks in a row, and expect Obama to take a slightly less circuitous route to criticizing Clinton leaving Edwards to do the dirtiest work (again.) There almost seems to be some understanding between Obama and Edwards about this whole thing...maybe because they're not very distinguishable on several issues...'

Thanks for the kind words, Cedric.
I guess we're just political junkies
I've ALWAYS been interested
I started this season out favoring Obama, then Edwards
I've flipped my choice because Edwards is more assertive
I think both are reformers, but Edwards is more of a populist.
I saw a piece by the pollster, Zogby calling Obama the Gene McCarthy and Edwards the Bobby Kennedy of this race.
Pretty apt
I waiting to see that debate !
ALL FIRED UP !!

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

BionicWoman, Tucson, AZ — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:47:09 GMT

Hillary never said she supported drivers licenses for illegals. She said she supported the govenors who have to find a solution to the illegals running around in their state.

It is not acceptible to lie in order to get a by-line.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:49:57 GMT

MK:
How far back in the hollows do you live?

What the national demographic tells us that the millions of folks living in 8-10 huge cities provide the "bulk" vote and the "profit margin" comes in the small towns and suburbs.

True, Hillary will probably not garner much of the survivalist vote, nor the votes of the brave volunteer militia who want to guillotine all politicians.

I know these people and I know where they live. The nation may tolerate them, but they are a dying breed. They kill their own.

Meth usually does the job or the fires they cause in their labs burn them to a crisp. I know about that too.

Do you take these people seriously as voters or is the water that bad in Missouri?

And MK, you are a bright person. Don't tell me you get your information from blogs. I would then likely lose the considerable respect I maintain for your opinion.

Hillary can win and she can kick ass... she is more of a survivalist than any wannabe Special Op.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Xrezbczkrq Al-Zkxbrtny, Remulak, France — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:50:02 GMT

We, the Grand Poobah Council of planet Remulak, are most impressed with your long list of esteemed candidates. Especially the Remulakian brothers, Kucinich and Paul. But even the earth aliens called Hillary, Ambassador (to Remulak) Richardson, and that hair-obsessed guy are also worthy of being granted green-person status on our great planet. They all illustrate our strong belief that no political leaders should possess strong beliefs.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

vanreuter, NY NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:50:35 GMT

The simple fact is: Hillary is an enemy of the Constitution. Her election as President will signal the End of the Republic. Blood will run in the streets. Tens of Millions will weep in the wake of their misguided vote!

Keith, Saginaw Michigan (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 2:23 PM)

My candidate for post of the day!
This may just be the quintessential anti-Hillary paranoid fantasy.
Keith's post is a prime example of why it's hard to take the Hillary haters seriously.

It's a toss-up as to which part of his wild-eyed prediction is worse; The part that depicts Hillary as the anti-Christ, or the sad lack of faith and belief in our government's institutions.

We survived Franklin Pierce. We survived Warren Harding. We survived Herbert Hoover, and with any luck, it looks like we will survive George W. Bush.

Van

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

John B, Des Moines, IA — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 19:55:54 GMT

Mark Thieme, great post at 2:04pm. Any of the Democrats will beat any of the Republicans next November. Only two things are necessary; 1) A stated intention to wind down the war, remembering that withdrawal is often the most dangerous part of any conflict. Especially an incompetently prosecuted war that never should have happened to begin with. 2) Laser focus on issues that threaten the embattled Middle Class. Health care, tax policies that favor the wealthy, job insecurity, the mortgage debacle, we all know where those pressures are coming from. It's also critical to roll back the powers of the fledgling police state but that hasn't really registered on the minds of most voters.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Sierra, SF — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:05:39 GMT

J. Merle Stanley, Westchester, NY: 'Better quiet down with the sacandal talk jerry.....Gigolo Rudy 'G' has a few problems of his own to deal with now.
I wonmer if Rudy will be called to testify at either Kerik's criminal trial or his civil trial.
I'll betcha' a dollar right here and now that he's called to at least one of them...'

Great !!
So as long as other people have scandals, it's OK for Hillary to be crooked ?
If Giuiliani did something wrong, that makes Norman Hsu OK ? That makes IDs for aliens OK ?
You Clinton Cultists always have the same lame excuse....
Someone else did it.....

TEACHER ! TEACHER ! THOSE BOYS ARE PICKING ON ME !!
Make the STOP SWIFT BOATING ME, BILL !

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Dot, Illinois — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:18:37 GMT

"Hillary never said she supported drivers licenses for illegals"...............Bionic Woman

She did say, with respect to drivers licenses for illegal immigrants that the idea "made sense to her." So, it could be argued that she supported the idea.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Cathy - KS — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:21:32 GMT

Seriously Hillary Clinton for President :( I believe she thinks if she keeps repeating "When I am President" it will come true. Wake up HillBilly

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

So Cal for Edwards — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:26:00 GMT

The one thing Edwards needs to do tonight is to STOP attacking HRC. Get back to how you want to turn this country around and save the middle class. You have great ideas, John. Stick with that format. Answer the questions with genuine answers that the other two can't and will you shine tonight. Truly set yourself apart tonight. It could be do or die tonight, don't hurt yourself.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:28:40 GMT

John B:

Your 2 points should be on the wall of every Democratic campaign war room.

In fact they are.

The best hope for America is that George Bush and the neo-con traitors will just go away. Far away.

And let us have our country back.

Frankly, I like the hand we are holding right now.

I just pray we don't devour our own as we have in the past and thus let the brain dead choose our leaders (again).

Thanks.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Cathy - KS — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:30:08 GMT

Seriously Hillary Clinton for President :( I believe she thinks if she keeps repeating "When I am President" it will come true. Wake up HillBilly

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:38:27 GMT

Sierra:
When Carter was running against Ronald Reagan in 1980, NOW (National Organization of Women) rolled out the infamous and stupid, ABC, Anybody But Carter campaign.

Guess what? They gave us eight years of Fantasyland in Washington, Iran-Contra, Ollie North, and a president who had to be accompanied to the bathroom.

Be careful what you wish for.

I believe you are well intentioned, as was NOW back in the ancient age.

Nonetheless, good intentions and a quarter will get you something out of a truck stop restroom vending machine.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Barbara C., Pompano Beach, FL — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:41:26 GMT

Undocumented Workers is a STATE ISSUE. What the Governor in NY State tried to do did not work out. Hillary's position is a Nationwide Assessment of the situation and given where the country is with Immigration right now...is a very smart move.

I have to ask this of the Press. How come when Rudy or Mitt gives three different answers to Abortion or going to War the Press gives them a pass? How come you only look at their mistakes for three hours after a debate and Hillary's 24/7? As someone who reads and watches 6 hours of news a day, it is just the way I see this every day when the press covers Hillary.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Al, KS — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:41:49 GMT

What Rasmussen did not give me was the second choice. A poll of Iowa doesn't work if you don't know who is the second choice of voters who support non-viable candidates like Richardson and Biden who will get less than the required 15% in most precincts. Anybody have a quess for who will get the bulk of the second choice votes?

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

HelenWiells, Oakland, CA — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:48:23 GMT

A little note to Hillary Clinton might read:
Hey, Hill (by the way, you thought of changing that nickname? Sounds waaay too much like an insider)...anyhoo...your enemies are gonna say, "if you can't stand the heat, get INTO the kitchen" and I KNOW you don't wanna hear that, what with the old cookie remark and all. Stay stong (think "assertive not aggressive", o.k.?) Luv ya...

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Cedric, Charlotte — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:48:29 GMT

carrie from SF and Cedric from Charlotte agree- I love my country, no matter how much hand wringing we & and I do sometimes...

one thing I have to say, which doubtless some will find disagreeable- I don't think its necessarily accurate to call people who are against gay marriage homophobes. I know a lot of people are genuinely homophobes, but I don't think it's accurate to call Christians who believe same sex sex is a sin homophobic. This is like calling people who hate NASCAR Leftturnophobes, or calling people who don't support affirmative action Preferencephobes. "Phobe" means fear. People who don't like NASCAR probably don't fear it. People who don't support affirm. act (I do) aren't necessarily scared of Black people or women. Stop pasting "phobe" onto every group of people who disagree with you. It's just an inflammatory, grossly inaccurate term to describe me and others like me. I generally don't fear people that I think are wrong (unless they're murderers.)

I'm a Christian who does not support gay marriage (though I support civil unions with full marriage rights) and I believe homosexuality is a sin (no more a sin than adultery, for example, but a sin in God's eyes none the less.) However, if I were a "homophobe," I'd have never survived a creative writing program (can you say liberal?) in DC (!) where at least a third of my classmates were gay or lesbian. I admit, it was quite a new world, coming from NC where the few gay friends I had were very apolitical, not interested in "gay marriage" at all, and generally just wanted to be treated right and left alone. I was raised in non-denom & the a.m.e. Zion Church and I have my beliefs but I respect each person's right to their opinion. We agreed to disagree, and I love each and everyone of 'em.

I love to talk politics but people get on these tangents and call names which do nothing to further the dialogue. I like some others here wish there was actually someone approving or disapproving some of the crap fairer minded posters endure on these message boards. It's completely fair to argue about religious folks' affect on the campaign, but the phrase "Bible-thumping homophobe" is really stereotypes most orthodox Christians and I find it inappropriate to say, especially hearing it from such otherwise intelligent commenters.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Cedric, Charlotte — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:49:13 GMT

grammatical error in last graph of my last post, apologies

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:07:13 GMT

Sierra:

When I hear bashing of the Clintons, I really get it. They are not your Sunday School role models for sure.

Regardless, I think of all those Democrats who bashed poor Jimmy and left us with Reagan... Carter, swiftboated by his own people... a real Sunday School teacher who was out-Jesused by the urbane and dishonest Ronald Reagan. It would be funny if it weren't true.

We don't need to add our own swiftboating to the coming stupid dog tricks of the Republican blitzkrieg.

Lighten up on the Clintons... we'll be fortunate to have them back, given the options... given the recent history of the nation.

We could end up with another bad actor in the White House, God forbid.

Fess Parker owns a world class winery in Santa Barbara County and I saw him recently at the winery. I told him he could have played Reagan better than Reagan himself. He laughed and asked me what I meant exactly.

I told him, "Fess, you played both Davey Crockett and Daniel Boone so well that everyone of a certain age still thinks of those characters with your face and mannerisms.

Ronald Reagan really thought he was Davey Crockett and Daniel Boone in Frontierland..."

So please Sierra, no more Disneyland presidencies.

It may be hard, but I believe the uber-patriotic thing to do right now is to support the Democrat who will fumigate the Haunted Mansion.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:12:35 GMT

Cedric;
Point taken.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Stopwatchingfoxnews, Rochester, NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:34:07 GMT

My girl will dominate tonight! Please Democrats, whichever Democrat wins the nomination, give them your full support. Hillary 08! People need to lighten up on this board. You people do realize only 25% of America cares about politics as much as anyone on these post. The vast majority could care less. Hense G. Bush won again in 2004. This is why we need all Democrats to stick together and stop bashing our own.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Cedric, Charlotte — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:45:10 GMT

1. @ Mark T.- thanks....

2. I'm not the posting police, and this is directed at no one in particular but we'd all do well to stop drinking the Sean Hannity/Chris Matthews combative Kool-Aid and make our points as civilly as possible. The minute you offend most people, they naturally shut down and don't listen to anything valid you have to say. (Pontificating ending...)

3. When is R. Paul going to go 3rd party? I would love to see the debates with him, the R and the D noms. He can't win the R nod- does he just want to rock the boat in places like NH? If so, doesn't he still have to go 3rd party/Independent anyway? A guy raising money like he does has to be allowed into debates next year right?

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Dot, Illinois — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:50:17 GMT

Cedric

I also enjoy good political discussions. You are correct about some of the stuff on this blog being a bit over the top, but I am willing to put up with that so that I can get the opinions from the good blogs. The other junk, I just ignore.

Your post was a good one.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:54:01 GMT

"I don't ask Obama or Edwards or Biden or any supporters of any other candidate to answer those questions because the reason why someone believes in a particular candidate is PERSONAL, (as are MANY of the attacks posted here) and I am concerned enough to check out the candidates myself. "

I did check out Hillary and found nothing. I was hoping someone could fill me in. No problem.

Regarding being fringe - I worked on Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign and even volunteered for McCain in the 2000 primaries in the hopes of defeating Bush. If calling a 42 year old, single, professional, college-educated (poli sci) woman who has been a lifelong democrat and supports Biden a member of the fringe then you are going to have more problems in the general election than you can possibly understand.

But, you evade a question just like Hillary so I understand why you support her.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

John Doe, Aberdeen, NC — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 21:58:06 GMT

No room for any more dirty laundry. Too many purple dresses. Give me your money! I'm Queen Hilary! Bow down.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:35:27 GMT

Let's get back together in the morning and sort out the debates civilly and respectfully.

I am hoping for positive messages from all the candidates.

I agree with Cedric that the vitriol is not only unnecessary, it is counter-productive to Democrats and Republicans alike.

Let's be done with the rude, insulting, interactions (perhaps you may rightfully question my sincerity here since I am guilty as hell).

All of that stuff just makes us red meat for those who would manipulate us.

To the degree that I have contributed to that silliness, I offer apology and a renewed sense of purpose that goes deeper than the superficial ego stroke of winning an argument.

It is time for us to pull together again as a nation.

Past time.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mitchell Feldman, Vestal, NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:38:25 GMT

The question for me is, how can we Democrats stick together, with Hillary as the standard bearer? She not only voted for this war but continues to support this moronic president in his bellicose rants. I just don't think that one is a Democrat simply by calling him/herself a Democrat.

I want a real Democrat. I want someone who understands that this war was wrong from the start. That's the reason, I was first drawn to Obama. At least Edwards has come to the realization that the decision to authorize force was a mistake. Dodd also has come around. We know that Hillary could never admit a mistake. And all of you Biden supporters, you should know that Biden won't admit that he made a mistake in supporting the President's Oct. 2002 resolution (although he didn't vote for Lieberman/Kyl - unlike Hillary, who just won't learn).

Van can quote all of the polls that he has at his disposal but he is not going to convince me of the inevitability of his candidate. I think the constant barrage that we anti-Hillary Democrats have provided, has begun to affect tectonic shifts. Of course team Hillary would like us to give up. They feel that if they can promote the idea that her nomination is a given, the rest of us will just give up and fly to her side. No f---in' way. It is just this attitude of entitlement that disgusts me and makes me insistent in my efforts to resist her.

BTW, Chris Matthews just said (5:19PM) has said that Hillary has taken no less than 5 positions on D.L.'s for illegals.

Sierra, Edwards passion comes across as pandering, to me, (although, I agree, that his litigator techniques made him very effective against Hillary at the Philly debate on 10/30/07). I think that he has taken bizarre positions on rental vouchers for the poor and ridding the nation of SUVs. These proposals seem like popularism gone awry. Even being against the Peruvian trade agreement seems to be a knee-jerk reaction.

I suggest to you that Barack (who I know, you are not against) has much more carefully thought out positions on issues. Anyway, I always enjoy your posts. That doesn't say much, though, because I almost always enjoy Jerry's posts as well.
Obama '08

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mitchell Feldman, Vestal, NY — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:38:26 GMT

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:57:30 GMT

Thinking about the way Cedric presents himself here, his model of discussion represents a a bit of a notch up for most of us. I am not sure I can come up to his example, to be truthful.

I don't agree with all his opinions, but he puts them forward with such clarity and civility, it reminds me of a time before I got involved in the heated, pitched battles of politics.

One can lose one's head here and also one's heart.

So, I salute Cedric for not only what he says, but how he says it. He pulls no punches, but he shows deference to those who disagree.

Politics can become an ugly pit pretty quick. If we can try to focus on our common humanity (as hard as that is to do in some cases!), we'll experience disagreement as a right and duty, but also a privilege.

Smashing heads comes as naturally to this old campaigner as going to bed at 9 o'clock! I hope I am not biting off more than I can chew!

Never know, I might learn something from someone with a very different set of values. Scary isn't it?

And if not, I can at least (attempt to) pose my values with appropriate respect to political adversaries as we are granted the grace to do so. Now that is scary!

Thanks Cedric (I think)

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Dot, Illinois — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 22:58:54 GMT

Mark Thieme

I agree and even though I can't watch the debate tonight, I'll be here to read what you all have to say.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

James — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 23:46:07 GMT

how come not one person, including the 'journalist' that wrote lead article has posted the TIME of the debate? Could we get som basic journalistic editor's oversight, please?

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:21:39 GMT

Just in... Hillary Clinton is in a furious debate before the debate. She wants to come out swinging like a woman and playing the tough woman, strong woman, role.

Some key advisers are totally opposed to that stance and are trying to convince her that such a pose will marginalize her candidacy.

Obama is cool as ice, they say, because he sees this as a possible break-out...

We'll see.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:35:51 GMT

Obama's people expect HC to have a short fuse tonight.

They seem to think they have Obama prepared to look more statesman like, vis-a-vis HC's edge.

That's the strategy... let's see what actually unfolds tonight...

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark McP, Scottsdale AZ — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 02:14:36 GMT

I am listening to this debate and I cannot believe how stupid these Democrat candidates are. "One American death is too much"... "The surge is failing"... "Civil rights comes before national security"... "President Bush failed on comprehensive immigration reform"... "Teacher's pay should not be based on merit"... "Illegal alien status is offensive to me"... "Pakistan is worse after Bush"... "America’s trade policy has been a complete and total disaster"... "67% of Iraqis want to see Americans shot"...

Hillary's voice is at full shrill tone tonight. But seriously folks, aren't you ashamed that this is the best and brightest the democrats can field? It's embarrassing.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

David Orr, Lincoln, NE — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 03:52:24 GMT

@J. Merle Stanley

Your critique of Dennis Kucinich is valid, we should ask about why Cleveland was financially run into the ground under his leadership. We should fully examine the pasts of all of the candidates running for office.

Cleveland was thrown into instability under Kucinich's leadership because he kept his promise to voters and kept Cleveland Public Power (then Municipal Light) a public utility, and not selling it into the private sector. Local banks (Cleveland Trust), specifically those whose board members stood to earn a great deal of money from the transaction, then refused to renew the $15 million credit line racked up by previous mayoral administrations.

What Kucinich did was save Clevelanders a ton of money. To this day electricity in Cleveland is a public service, and much more affordable than other cities that sold their public power into the private sector. The debt was not Kucinich's doing, and in fact he asked for and received a tax increase from Cleveland voters to help cover the cost.

Let's keep asking questions of our candidates. I don't think we can learn too much about their pasts and about their voting tendencies.

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 04:01:20 GMT

This was not Obama's last chance. He still hangs tough in Iowa.

However, I agree with the anti-Christ, Karl Rove, when he speculates that Obama has not yet done enough to define himself.

He had another golden opportunity tonight, but indeed the best woman won, the best prepared person on that stage was Hillary Clinton.

My hat is off to her!

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Mark Thieme — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 04:07:09 GMT

watch for a shakeup in Obama campaign

too little, too late?

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Jim — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 06:12:06 GMT

Obamma looked very uncomfortable tonight, forgot his words a couple of times, and acted like he was lost, this debate did not help him

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Jim- Iowa City — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:53:45 GMT

This stuff is all about momemntum. People are tired of the top 3 Democratic candidates. None of them will get elected in the general election and don't have what it takes to lead this country through the tough times ahead. Joe Biden is. He can and will win the general election. Hillary has been known around the world since '92 and can't garner more poll points than the 20's and 30's. SHE PAYS FOR THESE POLLS. There is an inherent bias in polls. Right now its about celebrity status. Joe Biden is the most qualified without a doubt. He is ready from day one to deal with Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Al Quaeda, the economy, healthcare, etc. He has detailed plans with budgest for all of them. Its great to have ideas but they won't work without budgets. Joe Biden will exceed expectations in Iowa and end up winning the nomination because of his momemntum. Obama and Edwards won't be in the race that long and it will be Biden vs. Hillary. Joe Biden will be our next President, mark my words.

www.joebiden.com

www.planforiraq.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OhPG7mk8yQ

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

Craig -Des Moines — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 16:56:41 GMT

Richardson-"Civil Rights are more important than National security"

Obama- "I will give licenses to illegal immigrants"

Clinton- liar, can't be trusted,

First thoughts: Fight night in Vegas

H P Boston — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:28:15 GMT

For the most part I have decided to either try and be civil or ignore you...doesn't matter much to me which...however ,you are the last person on this site to lecture anyone on integrity. Think about it.

Lyn, MD (Sent Thursday, November 15, 2007 11:20 AM)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Who made you the expert on integrity?? Van not only has it he also has intelligence and a sense of humor of which you have none. Your efforts at civility are nil! Join j in the thimble you will both fit quite snugly.