Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:29:46 GMT

Leave it to the press to take a complex issue like the war and turn it into a "yes/no" question. Maybe Wolf Blitzer can ask it that way at the next debate. "Raise your had if you supported the war in 2002." Nevermind the pesky details. Hey, guys, we can think through complex issues. We are not all a bunch of ignorant yokels. Iraq is very complex. Bill Clinton, and others, long asserted that the inspectors should have been able to complete their work PRIOR to deciding to invade. So being against the decision to invade prior to that condition is consistent. And by the way, Hillary's (and Edwards') support of the 2002 resolution was not a "vote for war", although, that makes an excellent dumbed down bumpersticker slogan... it was, a vote to give the president "authority" to use force if that was the last and only resort. We know now, GWB did not use that power judiciously, and NO ONE in 2002, in the shadow of 9/11, could have imagined a president abusing power as GWB did. That's the whole story. Not some two word dumbed down "Yes/No". It's a lot more complex than that. COME ON GUYS.. not every american is too stupid to understand the details. Some of us READ and THINK, and your oversimplified columns are sending us to alternate news sources who actually encourage critical thinking.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Bee — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:30:30 GMT

Bill Clinton need some all timer pills, I think he is suffering from illusion. I guess he is trying to re-write the history regarding the war his wife authorizes.

The greatest foreign policy fiasco of this generation is Iraq War. Hillary Clinton is part of the folks that get it wrong when comes down to making a good strategic decision.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

jerry/corpus christi texas — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:38:42 GMT

Sure is a lot of flip flopping in the Clinton campaign lately...

Hillary has five answers about illegals getting drivers licenses....

She can't give a straight answer about social security.

Tries to steal Mitt Romney's failed health insurance plan and calls it her own.....

avoids all the tough questions and only takes questions from reporters who are not going to challenge her...

Now her husband has been caught in a lie as well. They played the tape on good morning america this morning where he stated that Saddam had to go.

So in other words, according to Andrea Mitchell, it's going to take a superstar to tell people in Iowa how to vote?

Joe Biden must be dreaming if he thinks he is going to be the democratic front runner.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

mikeeg,abdn,wa — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:42:46 GMT

This is the bush repub fiasco war and no one else is to blame. bush has the American militery trapped in iraq, what if something happens elsewhere, what will we do, where will the troops come from? Don't ask bush or repubs cause they don't know.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Dave, Tn — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:45:38 GMT

Bill Clinton is a legend in his own mind. They've been trying to prop up his wasted years in office since the shock of 9-11. His cult members have been running all over the globe, and media shows here trying to rewrite "his history", and undermine Bush.
So let's pretend for a moment that Obama did win in 08. What kind of tricks would these bitter Clinton cult members pull against him? Yeah I can just see the "It should have been me, and I'll give you one more chance in 2012 HillBilly tour now.

"We were the only people who only ever got a bill out of committee in Congress. That is part of the reason we were prosperous. We got health care costs under control, reduced the number of people without insurance."

Really? Then what's all the fuse now?

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

jerry/corpus christi texas — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:46:18 GMT

Considering they went looking for WMD for 8 years under the Clinton watch, How can Bill Clinton look at the camera with a straight face and say they needed more time? All the UN resolutions that Saddam spat on wasn't going to change anything. Just like that moron in Iran, look at all the resolutions they have on Iran. He just smiles and prepares his country for war with Israel. It's bad enough for Hillary to go out there and go John Kerry by saying "I voted for the war before I voted against the war". Now her husband has been caught in a lie and it will not help her campaign any time soon.

Tim Russert must be licking his chops at some of the questions he has in mind for Hillary after yesterday.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

diane — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:47:33 GMT

the PAC story is a no go. first hillary needs to explain what she is going to do with the money she received from Hopefund in 2006. glass houses and all.
I watched that Foreign policy forum and it was fascinating. Not only because Obama was flanked by part of his Brain Trust, but, just how deeply he understands and is committed to diplomacy. And how much he disdains the failed but, still used conventional wisdom of the washington establishment on foreign policy.
When you listen to obama on foreign policy it is a vision of what the average person in america longs for and agrees with.
As for Streisand. I agree with that 1977 reference.
While the media may be dazzled and think it is big news, most of us out here are like big deal. She is a star for the over 65 set. Most voters have not known her or care about her. she is old news and way past her prime. She is for those who thought her so great 40 years ago.
But, that is right up the clinton's alley. They are so out of touch with people they think we care. They also think she is relevant still. lol.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

pat huntington ny — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:52:50 GMT

Bill and Hillary did not flip on this issue...only repthugliKKKans like Jerry who only see the world in black and white terms [and probably mostly white] are the ones who perpetuate this flip flopping nonsense over the Iraq war. Unlike the flip flopping freak show that is Mitt Romney who had literally said whatever he can to get elected wherever he's running. the same is true with Rudy.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Banko — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:53:48 GMT

Clinton Claims He Opposed Iraq War From The Beginning.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/28/us/politics/28clinton.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Bill Clinton Rewrites History on Iraq?
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/11/bill-clinton-re.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/11/27/clinton-claims-he-opposed_n_74406.html

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:55:10 GMT

Hey Bee, Don't get me wrong, I like Obama a lot, but if you think, Honestly, that he would have voted against the authorization of 2002, in the YEAR 2002, in the shadow of 9/11, had he been in the Senate at the time, you are deluding yourself.

The main point is, he WAS NOT IN THE SENATE. It's easy to decry decisions that you didn't have to make. Just like he got all over Hillary for the vote to name that Iranian group a terrorist organization... seems he didn't show for that vote, and he was certainly ELIGIBLE to do so. Yet, he beats up her position on it. Funny.

Now, the voters will have to decide which is better, a relative novice, with obvious intelligence and new ideas (albeit, many naive), or a old school, Washington insider, who while part of the establishment, no doubt can get things done. There are pros and cons on both sides of that debate (and I personally am still undecided).. but some of us who think past headlines, and who followed the news in 2002 very closely, don't really appreciate someone who was not sitting in the Senate, professing "how he would have voted".. with the benefit of 5 years of hindsight that Hillary (and others), did not have. Nice try, but that dog don't hunt.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

CitizenJ — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:55:58 GMT

“The reason I want you to sign one of these cards is because I know her,” he said. “I hope you make her the next president because she would be a great president and you would never, ever regret it.” - Bill Clinton

It sounds like he's selling a used car.

"After talking about hope, she took a veiled swipe at Obama. “You can’t just get people’s hopes up; you have to deliver results,”

Oh, you mean results like the 1993 healthcare initiative that you failed at? At least you tried, right? Bush tried to install Democracy in Iraq, too. Should we give him credit for actually doing it? Maybe he should have included a mandate for the Iraqis to get it done, right Senator Clinton? Mandates are a panacea for all our ills.

And how do you plan on delivering results when there are going to be at least 45 Republicans in the Senate blocking legislation just because your name is Clinton?

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Scott, PA — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:58:59 GMT

IS there anyone in here that doesn't honestly think that Biden is the storngest contender against any of the Republicans?
Please let me know.
Is there anyone in here that doesn't think that Biden is the most qualified? This shouldn't be this hard. Plese let me know.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:00:08 GMT

Hey Jerry, in the interest of fairness, how come I saw Mitt Romney the other day beating up Hillary's healthcare plan, when in his own governorship, that "similar" plan was among his greatest accomplishments. And now, that he's a bonified "neo con", NRA card and all, he's distancing himself from something that most people would agree was a pretty good, bi-partisan, accomplishment. Something that is now working for a pretty diverse state. Again, people with more than one brain cell are going to look at that and see that for what it is. Shameless, predictable pandering. The worst of politics. And what a Shame, Mitt had a real opportunity to emerge as a moderate who could appeal to independant minded folks like myself. Now, I just see him like all the rest.. a flip flopping, pandering, politician whom I have NO idea where he really stands. Like I say, a shame.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

CitizenJ — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:02:17 GMT

Or maybe for healthcare, we can start a $5000 baby bond for a healthcare savings account for everyone. Then, in 2012 when the Republicans retake the White House, they can privatize that account along with the education baby bond and Social Security. Then they'll start a program called "No Illness Left Uncured", and Congress will underfund it by $50 billion and we will all be dead by 2016.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

JenC — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:02:19 GMT

RE: Obama & Healthcare

Sen. Obama has it right and Sen. Clinton looks like she’s on the road to getting healthcare wrong AGAIN.

It’s not about mandating that people must purchase healthcare (i.e. forcing them to purchase it). As Obama said, many people desperately want healthcare coverage – they just can’t afford it.

He has proposed to make AFFORDABLE healthcare available to everyone, and people can choose to buy it or stick with their current healthcare coverage.

Sen. Clinton, on the other hand, has come to the amazing conclusion that the only reason why people don’t have healthcare insurance is because no one has stepped in to FORCE them to get it. Aside from the point that Americans don’t need anyone to cram healthcare down their throats (they want the option to purchase affordable healthcare coverage), Clinton’s so-called “mandate” is a crock anyway. Here’s a clipping from The Swamp:

…“after an event Monday [Nov 26] in Littleton, N.H., Obama said her promise of universal coverage will be no more than a hollow "political talking point" unless she can come up with a way of enforcing the requirement to buy health insurance that she proposes.”

"Sen. Clinton still hasn't explained what this mandate is: What's she going to do if somebody doesn't purchase health care? Is she going to fine them? Is she going to garnish their wages?" Obama said.

"One of the problems with her approach is that she hasn't been straight with the American people about how she's going to impose this mandate. And without an enforcement mechanism, there is no mandate. It's just a political talking point," he continued.

“Shortly after Obama spoke, his campaign sent out a memo noting that in Massachusetts, the only state so far to require residents to buy health insurance, hundreds of thousands of people have not purchased insurance despite a fine levied on those who fail to do so through their tax returns.”

Obama is not setting up a system to PENALIZE people for not subscribing to his healthcare initiative. He’s making affordable healthcare available to everyone and YOU get to choose whether you want to purchase it, keep your existing coverage, or purchase some other plan.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:04:24 GMT

And how do you plan on delivering results when there are going to be at least 45 Republicans in the Senate blocking legislation just because your name is Clinton?

Hey Citizen, do you really think that will matter? Do you really think Obama and Edwards' more liberal healthcare plans, for example, will have a BETTER chance of making it through those houses that Hillary's more moderate approach? I'm just asking. Like I say, she's got some negatives, but top to bottom, of the frontrunners, she's the most moderate. In GENERAL, moderate presidents tend to get things done. Recent examples Reagan, who worked with Tip O'Neill to compromise most of the time on big initiatives and Clinton, who also accomplished many things along bi-partisan lines. Do you really think a more liberal democrat would be more successful in a divided congress? Food for thought?

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:06:25 GMT

Scott, I agree 100%, if Biden is on the ticket by the time the show gets to GA, I will vote for him. But I doubt he will be, sadly, which puts me in a pickle.. I have to choose between the frontrunners and those all have pros and cons. Tough one. Can't vote for the republicans this time.. can't reward them for 8 years of incompetence. Just how I see it.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

grace, NY — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:17:20 GMT

Clinton Drops Cash in South Carolina
Email
Share
November 27, 2007 7:34 PM
ABC News' Eloise Harper Reports: After donating $100,000 to the Marion Wright Edelman Library in South Carolina, (money given from the Clinton Family Foundation) –
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2007/11/clinton-drops-c.html

While we are accusing people of trying to buy votes/or endorsements. The Clinton's have been doing this all year. Go ahead hillary stick out that "glass jaw" BTW this donate was given after she decided to run for president

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Dot, Illinois — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:30:32 GMT

Scott, PA

Did you happen to see the Judy Woodruff interview with Senator Biden last night on PBS? I thought he handled every question very well, never hesitated, gave well thought out answers. I think his experience really showed in how comfortably he could talk about a variety of issues.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

diane — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:30:36 GMT

Grace, you forgot how Hillary paid off Vilsack's campaign debts after he endorsed her.
She has been dropping money indeed.
What about those SC pastors in the spring. She bought them off as well.
I bet if someone looked into most of her endorsements you would find some big payoffs that we have not been told about.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:33:58 GMT

Hey JenC, just for the sake of argument, Obama's line has been all along that he thinks people don't have insurance because they can't afford it. While that is certainly true for some, maybe MOST, it's not true for all. And that shows his idealism. Some people are just lazy, irresponsible, and would rather spend their cash on big screen TVs or Cars. There are those people out there. Not everyone is unable to buy insurance, many are just unwilling. Do you think if states didn't mandate coverage for car insurance, people would all buy it? Even if it's affordable? Come on, your kidding yourself. If we didn't make people do it, if they had a choice, they wouldn't.

The only real answer is to make sure everyone has coverage, and that will require a mandate. That's what they did in Massachusetts, and that's what will work, SHORT TERM, until we can move to universal coverage. IT's a first step in the right direction.

We can argue the merits of all the frontrunners' plans on healthcare.. but it's my opinion, that Obama's insistence that cost is the only driver for why people aren't insured, shows he's on the naive side. It's one of his negatives. He has positives too, but this issue, underscores, this glaring "con". Just my opinion.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

CitizenJ — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:34:56 GMT

Hey Citizen, do you really think that will matter? Do you really think Obama and Edwards' more liberal healthcare plans, for example, will have a BETTER chance of making it through those houses that Hillary's more moderate approach? I'm just asking. Like I say, she's got some negatives, but top to bottom, of the frontrunners, she's the most moderate. In GENERAL, moderate presidents tend to get things done. Recent examples Reagan, who worked with Tip O'Neill to compromise most of the time on big initiatives and Clinton, who also accomplished many things along bi-partisan lines. Do you really think a more liberal democrat would be more successful in a divided congress? Food for thought?

Amazed, Atlanta (Sent Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:04 AM)

Yes, I do think it will matter. It's hard to say whose plan is "more liberal", so I'll just leave that alone. I'm not sure about Edwards, but I do think Obama's plan has a better chance of making it through both houses than Clinton's because he actually has a record of working WITH Republicans, whereas Clinton has a record of working AGAINST Republicans.

I agree, moderate Presidents do get things done. But not moderate Presidents named Clinton. Republicans hate her, whether it is justified or not.

Also, if Obama is on the ticket, I believe he will help the downticket Democrats in the purple states more than Clinton would. Therefore, in an Obama White House, I don't think Congress would be as split as it would be in a Clinton White House. Can you just imagine all the saliva the Republicans would produce with Hillary AND Bill back in the White House? It's their best chance of winning in 2012.

We have to remember to always keep looking ahead, not back to the '90s. Our country will not be healed in the next 4 years, so we need someone who will bring us together rather than just surviving the Republicans until the next election.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

CitizenJ — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:43:04 GMT

"The only real answer is to make sure everyone has coverage, and that will require a mandate. That's what they did in Massachusetts, and that's what will work, SHORT TERM, until we can move to universal coverage. IT's a first step in the right direction."

Amazed, Atlanta (Sent Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:33 AM)

You can't compare car insurance with health insurance. If someone gets pulled over without car insurance, cops can give them a ticket or take them to jail. How will you enforce a health insurance mandate? Start pulling people over and asking them? Arrest them at the emergency room?

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Take Me Back to 1958, Atlanta, Ga. — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:53:11 GMT

We are in trouble here, folks.

The duplicity of the Clintons has turned out to be worse than we imagined a few months ago. And Hillary put admitted national security criminal Sandy Berger on her campaign team a few weeks ago.

Obama is still very wet behind the ears and thinks his foreign policy abilities hinge on living abroad before he was a teenager. And even he takes PAC money and runs with criminals the way Hillary does.

All the other Democrats are becoming irrelevant, deservedly so.

The Republicans are pushing and shoving each other to see who is the most far right-wing conservative. Barry Goldwater would be ashamed of and angry at all of them, and he got this right-wing business started.

Maybe I'm getting old and crabby, but I sure wish I could have Eisenhower, Stevenson, Humphrey, Goldwater, Rockefeller and Johnson debating policy instead of the two rooms full of yo-yos running this year.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:54:03 GMT

CitizenJ, you make good points. Sadly, one of Hillary's biggest negatives is the fear that she will divide things further. But I am a practical person, and I hate to see someone eliminated due to what I think is unfair media coverage, sexism, and downright character assasination. Now, I know Hillary is no lily white, and she's a politician, but no more so that the other 15+ men running, yet, she receives the most unbridled scrutiny. Hummmm, wonder what that's all about?

In the end, I don't think I will do my country any service by choosing a candidate on the basis of likablity, or whether I think the neo-cons will like them or try to bring them down. I do it service by objectively evaluating the issues, the positions, and whether I think the candidate is ready to produce the results important to me. Like I say, all three front runners have their pros and cons, and I still am not sure yet.

On healthcare, as I stated above, I believe Hillary's mandate (and I think Edwards also has a mandate) is the right answer. I don't believe as Obama does that all people who are uninsured can't afford coverage. Many can't.. but some simply choose to be irresponsible. We mandate car insurance, we are going to have to do the same with health insurance. Sure, some people will grumble and hate it.. but it's the only way to effect the cost of indigent care, which is why the whole system is so out of control. It's, in my humble opinion, the main driver for why it's out of control. We can't control costs if everyone is not covered.

On other issues, Obama edges Hillary out.. so in the end, I'll have to compare them all one by one and make a call. But I won't have Rush Limbaugh eliminate Hillary FOR me, because I am afraid of the neo-cons and their smear campaign. If I submit to that fear, I'm no better than they are. We have to stand up to them.... they can't tell us who is divisive and who isn't.. they don't represent the majority anymore. It's not their call to make. JMHO

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

jerry/corpus christi texas — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:01:10 GMT

Hey Jerry, in the interest of fairness, how come I saw Mitt Romney the other day beating up Hillary's healthcare plan, when in his own governorship, that "similar" plan was among his greatest accomplishments.

Amazed:

His health care plan is about the only thing I disagree with him about. Forcing people at gunpoint to take health insurance is not the American way. A lot of experts have come out lately saying Hillary is about the same thing. Only problem is, Hillary is pointing a lot of guns at a lot of people about her "either your brains or your signature will be on the paper" approach to running the country. A lot of people got waivers in Mass. because they could not afford to pay the monthly bill. $178 to $380 a month for health insurance is no small drop in the bucket. It filters down through the economy. One less movie, one less dinner out, one less football or baseball game. A lot of the stories I've read in the Boston press are suggesting people would rather pay the penalty on their taxes rather then be held hostage.

The best way to handle health insurance is a two step front. All this SCHIP crap could have handled very easily. President Bush funding it at the regular level and let the states pickup the rest. Very simple. Only problem is that in politics, nothing is simple. Like CitizenJ said, what are you going to do, arrest somebody in the emergency room if they don't have health insurance?

people are also going to have to realize that everything the feds touch turns to mush. Everybody screaming about President Bush and his prescription drug plans. That is a good example right there. A lot of problems can be wiped out if there was just a plan where you put your own money away in a medical savings account. If the government wants to match it, fine and dandy. It's either that or you better do some homework and check out EVERY healthplan in America.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

CitizenJ — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:04:18 GMT

Amazed, Atlanta (Sent Wednesday, November 28, 2007 10:54 AM)

Amazed,

I guess we will just have to respectfully disagree about some things. I don't think her divisiveness is media-driven for the most part. She proved in 1993 that she can't work well with Republicans. We all witnessed the veracity with which the Republicans went after Bill when he was in office. They will undoubtedly show Hillary the same respect, regardless of how the media reports it.

Regarding healthcare, as I posted earlier, you just can't enforce a healthcare mandate like you can a car insurance mandate. You mentioned in your post that you believe that most of the people who don't have insurance don't have it because they can't afford it. You also said that the best way to control costs is to mandate that we all have it.

But for those millions who can't afford it, getting the cost down FIRST is the only way they can get it. So until then, they won't have it, regardless of whether someone tells them they have to get it.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:07:32 GMT

Citizen J,
You'll have to come up with enforcing the mandate somehow, a fine, perhaps (you wouldn't arrest them at the emergency room). I am telling you, if you don't mandate coverage, the whole thing is a wash. You won't move the indigent costs near enough.. and it's the indigent costs that are causing the healthcare general costs to skyrocket. THAT is the root of the problem..the costs. You must get them under control and the only REAL answer is universal coverage (cutting out the middleman and streamlining), but a close second is at least mandating coverage. If we can't go for the whole enchilada, then we have to move in the right direction.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:09:15 GMT

Scott,

I'm with you 100%.

As I see it:

Biden is your daddy, Hillary is your older sister, and Barack is your stoner uncle.

It is time for the grown-ups to take over the debate.

BIDEN '08

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:14:15 GMT

Citizen J, it's a complex problem.. and it requires both a creative plan to allow people to "buy into" an HMO type based on their income level.. and requiring that people take some responsiblity. The thing is, I know this will sound bad, there are a lot of just ignorant folks out there. They show up at the emergency room and they are the reason for the costs being out of control. We have to find a way to get coverage to them, make sure they keep it, encourage them to be responsible (preventative care is a big part of this too) and provide them the necessary help. It's a big problem, and likely, none of the EXACT plans proposed will be the final bill, but I still say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. And if we don't get these folks drinking, those costs aren't going to disappear.

Believe me, I'd like to see the whole system reformed and move to a universal system. I believe it would cost less, and work better. I think Hillary was closer to right the first time. However, the public isn't read for that.. so like I say.. baby steps.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

pat huntington ny — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:19:40 GMT

His health care plan is about the only thing I disagree with him about.

-----
Then I guess Jerry you are a homophobic bigot too!

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:19:57 GMT

Jerry, That HMO spending account idea leaves out one major thing.. the people who today CANNOT afford premiums (those who are not eligible fore medicaid) will not be able to afford a medical spending account. That's the kicker, there are some people out there stuck in the middle. And the COSTS are so high because those people, seek out the most expensive care when they get sick (emergency rooms).

Also, there are those with pre-existing conditions. IF your child had lukemia, would you be able to pay the bills with no insurance? Are we okay with just letting people die who can't pay?

Here's the thing.. either we COVER EVERYONE, or we just make peace with a "for market" system in which some people (the poor) will suffer because they can't participate. This "in the middle" hybrid crap won't work long term.

As I said, Hillary (and the other democrats') plans are STEPS in the right direction, but really, they all stop short too. Because we can't have a "for profit" healthcare system, that takes care of everyone. Those two things, don't work together. In a capitalist model, there are winners, and losers. IF you apply that to healthcare, you'll have losers. You can't have it both ways. Either we decide that it's in our nation's best interest to invest in the health of our citizens, or we decide it's more important to follow a capitalist approach. That, my friend, it the bottom line. Trying to balance in the middle with bandaids might work for a while, but in the end.. it's not sustainable.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

CitizenJ — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:25:23 GMT

Amazed, Atlanta (Sent Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:07 AM)

Amazed,

A mandate may be part of the answer, but it has to come much later, after the other problems are under control. You have to crack down on the insurance companies who charge exorbitant rates, then cancel your coverage once you need it. To do that, you need to establish an oversight agency which does nothing but monitor the private insurance companies. Obama's plan does that. You also need to convert to electronic record-keeping, which will dramatically cut costs. Both plans do that. You also need to reward hospitals and doctors for successful treatments rather than the number of patients they send through (quality over quantity). That will increase wait times, so we will need to establish more local community clinics (funded by the government), which pay doctors by how well they treat their patients. Insurance companies will need a mandate to pay for these procedures regardless of pre-existing conditions (there's your mandate). The government also needs to subsidize the costs of catastrophic insurance, which will reduce premiums. We need to emphasize prevention. Give bonuses to doctors who get their patients to quit smoking. Place restrictions on the production of hydrogenated oils, and similar products. Put warning labels on foods that contain these products. Once you reduce these costs, then it will be much easier for people to purchase some tpye of insurance, and you won't have to require them to do it.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:33:08 GMT

Those are good points, CitizenJ.. and while I personally agree with Obama's idea to create oversight on private insurance companies, I know good and well (as you do) that the republicans would never sign on to such a thing. That would violate their "laizze faire" approach to business. Hillary's plan is less intrusive, initially (except for the mandate), which is why I think it might be more acceptable.

But you could be right, her other negatives might overcome it all.. what's good to see, is You and a few others, who have compared things and are trying to make a decision on a candidate based on facts. That's all I'd like to see us do. Keep the personal crap, color of skin, gender, all that stupid crap out of it.. and get to voting based on what we think will WORK. We can debate these specifics, and even help each other think.. and I think that's positive. What galls me is that the media ignores specifics and instead, grasps on to sensational bumper sticker slogans that leave out the whole story.. and the majority of voters, don't pay attention to the details.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

jerry/corpus christi texas — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:41:04 GMT

Last night I heard a tale of two countries and two ways of dealing with heart trouble.....

Bill Clinton had chest pains....
Went to the hospital on a Thursday.....
had Surgery to unclog the hoses on a Monday......

Same day.....

Some union leader in Canada (name escapes me now)
had chest pains..........
went to the doctor............
was told he had to wait three weeks before someone saw him.........
drove himself to Seattle Washington..........
had same surgery Bill had......

and why do people think the Canada health plan is better?

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

vanreuter, NY NY — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:45:56 GMT

J-

What happened to that, "civil discourse", site? Too civil? You seem to have put on your Obama talking points suit, complete with blinders.

"Clinton has a record of working AGAINST Republicans." you claim.

Do you have ANYTHING at all to support this? I have more than anyone would want to see attesting to her BIPARTISANSHIP as a senator. Here are some examples from the past couple of years alone. Clinton's history of reaching across the aisle to republicans is well documented and confirmed by supporters and detractors alike in the senate. Of the many spurrious charges against Hillary, this is one of the easiest to refute;

September 12, 2007

Senator Clinton Joins Bipartisan Coalition of Senators to Call on President Bush to Release Additional Funds from LIHEAP Contingency Fund
http://www.senate.gov/~clinton/news/statements/details.cfm?id=282491

February 28, 2007

Senator Clinton Leads Bipartisan Effort to Fund Family Caregiver Bill
http://www.senate.gov/~clinton/news/statements/record.cfm?id=269849

From Senator Clinton, a Lesson in Tactical Bipartisanship

"Mr. Graham recently wrote a glowing tribute to Mrs. Clinton for Time magazine's coming 100 Most Influential People issue, in which he calls her a "smart, prepared, serious senator" who "has managed to build unusual political alliances on a variety of issues with Republicans."

"I don't want her to be president," Mr. Graham said in an interview. "We're polar opposites on many issues. But we have been able to find common ground."

The pairing may be odd, but it is not unique or, from Mrs. Clinton's perspective, accidental.

One by one over the last five years, to team up on specific projects, she has sought out the most conservative of Republicans — many of whom tried to remove her husband from office just two years before she won her seat and derided her candidacy when she stepped into electoral politics. They, in turn, have sought her out."

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/30/nyregion/30hillary.html?ex=1304049600&en=a8dac02a4bcc16bc&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

July 20, 2007

Clinton, Bipartisan Coalition of 14 Senators Work to Overturn Supreme Court Decision on Pay Discrimination

June 21, 2007

Lawmakers Introduce Bi-Partisan Health IT Bill

http://www.senate.gov/~clinton/news/statements/record.cfm?id=279482

There are literally dozens of examples. Clinton and John McCain have both been known for their efforts in this area and again, it's so well documented that it is hard to believe that anyone who follows politics would make a statement as obviously and patently false and as easily discredited. Many of the charges that the Obama camp have, "borrowed", from the RNC are nebulous character assassination based on rumor, vignettes from media hit pieces and the like, which are, by the very nature of their construct extremely difficult to disprove. Your charge that, "Clinton has a record of working AGAINST Republicans." isn't one of them.

Van

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

CitizenJ — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:46:04 GMT

Amazed, Atlanta (Sent Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:33 AM)

Yeah, the media doesn't help. I saw a headline on CNN.com this morning that said "Talking About Drug Use on the Trail - Obama Too Honest?" Too honest? Are you serious?

Anyway, nobody's plan will be fully implemented during their term, but I think we need to decide who is better suited to make progress in the right direction, not just on healthcare, but on everything. To me, that person is Obama, based on his past record of working with Republicans on divisive issues. Clinton's history of fighting against Republicans (and she even touts this experience on the trail) is just not the right direction for us to be going - in my opinion.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

jerry/corpus christi texas — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:48:41 GMT

Amazed Atlanta:

You cannot have it both ways. A lot of people do not want health insurance. You cannot make people go to the doctor. You cannot make people eat healthier or go outside and exercise. You cannot force medication down your veins, unless you have a court order.

No matter what people are thinking about whatever health plan any candidate can talk about, the one thing that no candidate will tell you straight to your face is that you will not get free health insurance. it is going to cost you and depending on what candidate you believe in, it will either cost you a hell of a lot more then what you are used to paying right now or you will be shut out. You cannot force the insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions, the government would lose in court.

fact of the matter is, whether you accept this or not, it is up to people, not government to get health insurance. You sow what you reap. You can get cheap insurance. You just have to be adult enough to do the homework yourself. if you don't want insurance, you throw the dice and take your chances. No one should be told what to do with their personal lives.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Mark Thieme — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 16:52:30 GMT

Hillary Clinton has a strong record of working with the "vast right wing conspiracy."

They love her as she does them.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

RKA, IL — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:01:40 GMT

Yes, people need to vote for the Clintons because you get 2 for the price of 1. No, not just two presidents for the price of one, 2 positions for the price of one. You get two positions on Iraq, Iran, NAFTA, Baby Bonds, social security taxes, etc for the price of one. Great!

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

JJ Jax, FL — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:05:45 GMT

Hey Amazed, your're supporting Hillary right? I could tell that you do from reading the first two sentences of your long comment...wanna know how? Because you're trying to justify their words and actions by saying every is they take on is far too complex to answer 'yes' or 'no' to. And while that statement holds some validity, when it comes to votes in the Senate, I don't ever remember there being a 'yes' vote, a 'no' vote, AND a 'well yes AND no' vote. If Billary didn't like the provisions listed on the Iraq War Authorization, then she should have voted against it! But once again Bill and the Hillidiots come one in droves and decry: 'that's to hard, ask her an easier one!' Her inability to give straight answers PROVES that she is NOT 'ready to lead from day one'! Heck, it even isn't 'day one' yet! But you Hillary-lovers waste no time in saying Obama needs 'on the job training'. I don't(and most intelligent Americans) care that she slept in the same bed with a former president! There is no position out there that can truly and fully prepare one for the position of president!

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

CitizenJ — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:16:56 GMT

Van,

I haven't given up my desire for civil discourse. I am just feeling a bit fecetious today. I get in these moods once in a while.

Hillary has said on the trail several times that she has been fighting Republicans for 15 years. I realize that she has passed legislation with Republicans, but when it comes down to it, she is more prone to fighting them as a whole than she is to working with them. I have no doubt that she can find a Republican or two to help her write some legislation, but when she tries to put an issue like healthcare on the table, most of the Republicans are going to oppose her because she is a Clinton. I don't think it's fair, but that's just how it is. Think of the victory the Republicans would win (in their own heads) if they defeat her healthcare initiative for a second time. We'd never hear the end of it.

Now, I don't think Obama will be able to magically pass huge legislation like healthcare either. But I do think he doesn't generate the default feelings of contempt among Republicans that Clinton does.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:23:37 GMT

Actually, JJ, I haven't decided who to support. I do, however, hope to make an educated decision based on facts rather than media talking points. I don't subscribe to headlines as the full story. I have plenty of issues with HIllary, as I do with Obama, and actually.. less with Edwards. I do get accused of being a HIllary supporter everytime I come to her defense. Which I think is really, really funny.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

JenC — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:25:28 GMT

Amazed: If Hillary is going to mandate her healthcare plan, the plan should be FREE. Either she should raise taxes or find some other way to pay for it and then announce that free healthcare is available for all American citizens.

Also, the issue IS affordability. Healthcare companies charge ridiculously high premiums, cover very little, don't cover pre-existing conditions, mark up the cost of the services, then impose huge copays, which essentially force you to pay for most (if not all) of the true cost of the services you actually use through the copay anyway. Healthcare is a cash-cow for the insurance companies. You pay a heck of a lot of money for a card that says you're covered, but which doesn't cover very much.

I have recently come across an MD ($200K/year) and an engineer making $100K per year who both had to file for bankruptcy because of healthcare costs - and they both HAD healthcare insurance!

Cost and the services/conditions that are covered are the issue, but you and Hillary would have us believe that people don't have sufficient coverage because they're dumb and lazy, not because they can't afford it.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Scott, PA — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:33:17 GMT

Dot,
I missed the PBS interview but I caught his live Town Hall on C-Span and streamed the interview he did with the CBN this morning. The more I listen to him the more I feel he can run the presidency better than any of the otehr candidates...and I like most of the other candidates.

As for the best Healthcare plan: Biden's plan has the best shot of passing through the halls becuase he has the trust and respect of all of his colleagues (I mean, he git 75 votes on the most contentious issue of the day... Iraq). I have no hesitation beleiving that this guy can do it...finally. I also believe him about changing the loobyist influence through his campaign finance reform.
Amazed, don't just look at the so called 'front runners' for policies. Biden has a real good plan that is very acheivable though not as far reaching as the others.
Van, she has not "accomplished" much with her bi-partisian support, and I beleive that is the point.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:38:23 GMT

Cost and the services/conditions that are covered are the issue, but you and Hillary would have us believe that people don't have sufficient coverage because they're dumb and lazy, not because they can't afford it.

I don't disagree with you Jen, and I never said costs weren't the issue, they are precisely the issue. I just think that assuming that if you make affordable coverage available, EVERY persoon will jump at the chance to sign up is naive. That's my opinion. Why? Because I know people who STILL wouldn't do it. Now, that being said, that's certainly preferable to what we have now.. which is NOTHING, and I am all about helping and providing solutions for those who cannot pay the premiums (Hillary's plan, in fairness, does this too). But the main difference is the mandate, and my point is, if you don't mandate that people get coverage, there will be some people who will STILL turn down really good affordable coverage, and they will STILL show up at the emergency room, and those costs will STILL get passed on to everyone else.

Now, Citizen had a good point, perhaps the mandate should come later.. he/she could be right. I just think it's naive to assume, that the cost of the insurance plan is the ONLY driver to the individual. People will still make bad choices. But the question is, how far do you go? And that's a good question and debatable.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

jerry/corpus christi texas — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:41:06 GMT

I have recently come across an MD ($200K/year) and an engineer making $100K per year who both had to file for bankruptcy because of healthcare costs - and they both HAD healthcare insurance!

must have been some deductable........
or they have 42" plasma TV's in every room.....

you would have to be pretty stupid to get your self into a fix like that...

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Ron, TX — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:42:43 GMT

Van sure does post a lot of propaganda and misinformation. I hope the Hillary Campaign is paying him well.

"Turn up the heat" is indicative of Hillary's stance towards Republicans. She doesn't want to work with them. She wants to FIGHT them. That's what her WHOLE CAMPAIGN is based on, until more recently anyway, when she started slipping in the polls and shifted into attack mode.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Nashville_fan — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:43:01 GMT

Amazed and CitizenJ - thanks for giving me the treat of having something intelligent and well thought out to read this morning - such a rare treat!

P.S. Amazed, Obama was not in the senate for the Iraq war authorization, however he did speak out against it at the time - so its not like he just sat back and waited for it all to fail and then decided he was against it.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

vanreuter, NY NY — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:48:53 GMT

J-

Fighting the republican attack machine (what a great name for a band!) is not the same as fighting the republicans. Clinton was re-elected to the senate with a much greater percentage of republicans than her FIRST term, so THEY didn't see her as fighting them, they saw her as someone fighting FOR them.

It's important to try to extract the truth from the rhetoric and spin, and one way we can do that is to ask questions that can be investigated with quantifiable, unambiguous empirical information.

Hillary Clinton 1st term election;

Clinton won the election on November 7 with 55% of the vote to Lazio's 43% [46]. Clinton won the traditionally Democratic base of New York City by large margins, and carried suburban Westchester County, but lost heavily populated Long Island, part of which Lazio represented in Congress. She won surprising victories in Upstate counties, such as Cayuga, Rensselaer, and Niagara, to which her win has been attributed.

Clinton-55
Lazio-43
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_United_States_Senate_election,_2000

"The New York 2006 U.S. Senate election held November 7, 2006 determined that incumbent Democratic Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton would continue to represent New York in the United States Senate, for a six-year term ending January 2013. This is Clinton's second term as Senator. Clinton was challenged by Republican John Spencer, the former Mayor of Yonkers, New York. Clinton gained 67% of the vote to Spencer's 31%."

Clinton-67
Spencer-31
"Clinton's victory margin over her Republican opponent (67%-31%) was a significant gain over her showing in the 2000 senate race against Rick Lazio (55%-43%), and was the second-largest margin of victory for a Senate race in New York history,[citation needed] and the third-largest for a statewide race in New York."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_United_States_Senate_election%2C_2006

You don't do that without getting republicans to vote for you. Hillary has an actual track record, based on her TWO elections to the US senate, of INCREASING her support from the other party as proof that the rhetoric here does not match the reality of quantifiable information.
It's one thing to claim how Clinton will do based on the media narrative, but when that narrative is not supported by the empirical information available, the narrative should be called into question.

Van

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:51:21 GMT

Scott, you don't have to sell me on Biden. He's the guy I'd like to support, but I am a realist, and I live in a state way down the primary list, and know that by the time it gets here, he will be out of money. We can thank the stupid media for that too! This is why I am at least trying to "understand" the frontrunners to make the best call out of those I can. Biden is definately the one.. and I don't get why the democrats aren't with him. The whole system STINKS if you ask me. All of them are bought and sold, don't be naive and think ANY of them are above it. The only thing you can do is to attempt to pick the person who you think is most likely to address your issues. It's really, all we can do. Short of storming the capital, and believe me, that's not far off.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

juan,ft lauderdale,fl — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:51:45 GMT

Jerry-As long as hlthcare is based on market profits for HMO'S and pharmeutical companies WE ALL WILL CONTINUE TO BE SEEN AS A NUMBER ONLY. Why is it that case managers (R.N'S/M.D.'S) are denying claims so they can recieve bonuses and enhance companies success at the expense of us the people. Granted in Canada elected procedures can create logjams and waiting times;however; Canadians live longer, less infant mortality rates, they do not go in debt and spare me the Socialism/liberal talking points. Universal hlthcare should never be based on one's ability to pay but benefits the country financially in the long run. Jerry why do you think trauma centers are closing in record number's in this country? For example, say you are in a severe car accident in Corpus cristi, and the nearest trauma center was recently closed what do you think would happen to you? Republicans talk about fiscal budgeting;however; they never have balanced a budget as President and or when in control in congress. I guess they are too busy spending our tax money in Iraq. I personally have no problems paying more in taxes to help needy kids and adults because I am compassionate and work in the hlthcare field.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Linen Olson, Big Rapids MI — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:53:13 GMT

JenC:

Amazed: If Hillary is going to mandate her healthcare plan, the plan should be FREE. Either she should raise taxes or find some other way to pay for it and then announce that free healthcare is available for all American citizens.

======

Weeeell, nothing is free though, right?

What Hillary, et.al., are saying is that there are millions of uninsured people in the US, and she is going to mandate that all of them have health care. The sticking point is that 85% of the people currently have health care, and will be asked to pick up the tab for the ones that don't. So the sell job Hillary needs to do is on the compassion of implementing the program, and at the same time she has to hide the fact that people will be paying signifcantly higher taxes (what government program runs under budget?) for something they had before Hillary showed up.

Good luck with that.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:54:01 GMT

Fair enough, Nashville Fan. I am from Nashville! However, he didn't have to put that vote on record.. and it's easy to say when you didn't have to actually do it.. but I don't expect him to lay back on it either. It's one of the things he can hit her on, and all is fair in war and politics. I know her Iraq vote bothers a lot of people and that's a fair point.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Kathy, SE PA — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:55:04 GMT

Scott I absolutely agree with you. Biden has the qualities our country needs.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Ellen Washington, Chevy Chase MD — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:56:01 GMT

One thing about Bill Clinton. You know he's lying when he wags his finger at you. He wags his finger a lot.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

SW GR, MI — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:56:40 GMT

Maybe the voters of Iowa and New Hampshire will defy the press, use common sense and choose Joe Biden as the nominee. Even though the media gives him no chance, perhaps the voters will out smart them. I can only hope.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

JenC — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:59:42 GMT

Amazed: READ Obama's healthcare proposal. Don't just rely on media soundbites. He never said that cost was the ONLY consideration. Also, mandating healthcare isn't equivalent to requiring car insurance.

Financially penalizing people who can't afford your healthcare insurance is what is naive and irresponsible. Did you think Hillary was "naive" and "irresponsible" in 1993 when she proposed a healthcare plan that went down in flames before congress could even vote on it (i.e. put it out of its misery)? For heaven's sake, her husband was the president (he would have signed anything she put in front of him), and the Dems ruled the house/senate and she still couldn't get it done.

Mrs. First Lady sure did show how un-naive and responsible she was for accomplishing that impressive feat.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

CitizenJ — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:16:04 GMT

Van,

Getting Republicans in your state to vote you into office is not the same as getting Republicans to vote for your legislation within the House or Senate. Those Republicans represent Republicans from around the country, who might just be angry if their representative agrees with a Clinton. Whether their contituents actually like or dislike Clinton is irrelevant. It's what is perceived by the Senator that matters. If he thinks voting in line with Clinton will keep him from getting elected, then he/she probably won't do it.

I'm not saying she can't build some kind of coalition, but I just think in the current climate that it is very unlikely.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:16:48 GMT

Jen C,

Methinks you just hate Hillary (Mrs. First Lady comment), and that's okay. I'll make this pledge to you.. if Obama wins the nomination, I'll support him (I've said this all along, in fact, I am still undecided in the primary).. if you'll make the same pledge for Hillary. Fact is, a democrat is a democrat, and either (as well as any of the others) would be better than those jokers on the other side.

I have read the plans, and while your argument about financial penalty is valid, the reality is, if we don't all SHARE the burden of healthcare in this nation, it won't work. That means, it can't be free. It can't be free to you, me, corporations, any of us. We all have to take responsiblity in one form or another.

If you allow people to "opt out", then those people become a BURDEN on the rest of us when they get expensive emergency care they can't afford. We pay the bills either way, you see. So, the trick is, to find the most efficent way to pay the bills and share the burden.

I actually think Hillary's first attempt at healthcare in 1993 was a better solution than the one she, or any of the democrats, are proposing today. I think major reform is what is actually needed. However, the "going down in flames" illustrates that this country, businesses and consumers, are not ready for major reform. So you notice, all democratic plans stop short of REAL universal coverage.

I think Obama's plan is good, I am just saying that the mandate will be necessary at some point. I think she's right about that. I think as long as people can sluff off responsiblity, they will. That's human nature. I actually do think health insurance is a lot like car insurance. In fact, if anything, it's MUCH more important. You can replace a car for what, 5, 10k? Get cancer and rack up 1 million in bills and who pays? WE DO. As I say, we have to find a way to pay the bills in the most efficient way, because we are going to pay them either way.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

vanreuter, NY NY — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:26:35 GMT

I'm not saying she can't build some kind of coalition, but I just think in the current climate that it is very unlikely.

CitizenJ (Sent Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:16 PM)

We will change the climate when we have a democratic President and congress. I think that is something that we can both work towards...

BTW...Those who accuse anyone supporting any candidate of being a, "paid", blogger, poster, or operative (I'm not talking about you, J) here, should be looking out for the black helicopters and refitting their tin-foil hats...

Van

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

CitizenJ — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:46:30 GMT

We will change the climate when we have a democratic President and congress. I think that is something that we can both work towards...

vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, November 28, 2007 1:26 PM)

We do share the same goal. Our differences simply lie with who we think is best suited to achieve that goal.

I think people lose sight of the fact that no matter who is elected President, they are going to need the Congress in order to get things done. Congress passes legislation, not the President, so while the Presidential race is of the utmost importance, we can't forget about all the equally important Congressional races.

My opinion is that the Democrats will not end up with a sufficiently significant majority in both houses to avoid the gridlock we see now. Therefore, the President must be someone that will be able to bring enough people from both sides of the table together to be able to get crucial issues dealt with. I respect the fact that we can disagree on who that person is.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

jerry/corpus christi texas — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:48:00 GMT

We will change the climate when we have a democratic President and congress. I think that is something that we can both work towards...

Van Van Van:

But your girl said she can't leave Iraq until at least 2012......

so aren't you supporting a woman who is going to stay in Iraq??????

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Amazed, Atlanta — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:01:36 GMT

Jerry,
The reality is, we won't leave Iraq for a long time.. that's the mess we've been left with.. thanks to your boy Bush, and the collasal mess he's made. We can start moving some troops out, even most of them, but there will have to be residual forces. It's not what the far lefters want to hear, but it's the reality.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Mark Thieme — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:14:28 GMT

It is true, there is no Democrat so Republican as Hillary Clinton. Put that in a "tin foil hat and drag deeply!"

It is true, there is no candidate, Republican or Democrat as cozy with the capitalist plutocracy. She already has a black helicopter ready at a moment's notice. Rupert Murdoch is her pilot.

It is true that no one "reaches across the aisle" (panders) with as much enthusiasm as Hillary Clinton.

That is why the Bush's support her... that is why she and former president Clinton will win in 2008.

We can, at last, expect a "compassionate conservative" in the White House.

Don't believe me... read the polls until something mystical appears on the screen...

Could this be the Rapture?

Check it out on Rasmussen.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

vanreuter, NY NY — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:19:55 GMT

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Dot, Illinois — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:26:09 GMT

Van

Well said!

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

vanreuter, NY NY — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:35:25 GMT

Sounds like one for the "list of mistakes that no one caught...

From now on, the EDP will be known as, "Baron Münchhausen", in honor of the unlimited number of self-aggrandizing fabrications that comprise their current persona. For those unfamiliar with the Baron's previous incarnations and serial farewells...

"Watcher 4 kind of gave us away, so we have decided to go ahead and come clean. Besides, the game here is getting a little out of control. We actually never intended to be the cause of anyone's meltdown.
Our fearless leader (not Mark Thieme) invented that name about a year ago with Samuel Clemens in mind. (Mark Twain/Mark Thieme... marking time)
It started as a group of five people, 2 women and 3 men who worked in the same campaign, but soon it spread to other campaigns as well. Once we had more than 50, but due to the increasing intensity of the campaign, we have lost some members.
Diverse group. Some young, some old, only 5 white males! Some are veterans, some are not. We have almost as many women as men and even 2 Republicans who claim they won't vote that way in 2008.
Our original intent was to choose some interesting blogs and have some good clean fun.
Soon, though, we found ourselves in the most horrendous and vile shouting matches most of us had actually witnessed up close.
Our idea had been to inject some of the reality of campaigning into the dialog. But we soon found out, that as Thomas Merton famously said, "Most humans can't stand much reality."
We found ourselves being punched out by weekend warriors, both political and military. Our veterans were incensed, our political operatives laughed at first, but then Mark Thieme suited up.
The Thieme character was flawed from the beginning. We keep a diary of faux pas which we were never called on. One time Thieme has kids, other times he is single, and so on. It was always according to who was blogging."

So, swallow your Zyprexa, adjust the antenna on your tin-foil hat, and keep those who know in stitches with your pearls of cryptically unintelligible, "insider", wisdom while taking ineffectual swipes at the Van that ran over all 34 of you. Oh that's right, YOU didn't write that, did you Baron?

Van

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Tiffany Portland, Oregon — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:35:28 GMT

People who are making $100K to $200K a year, plus have health insurance, should have no reason to file for bankruptcy! I am actually surprised that they were able to in court. Six years ago I was uninsured (company I worked for didn't offer any) and ended up having a medical emergency. I was making around $25K per year, which was too much to qualify for Medicaid. I tried to then sign up for insurance to cover all my followup care that I needed beyond the initial "emergency." There was a clause that preexisting conditions had a waiting period of six months to one year depending on the issue in all the plans I looked into. So, this was of no help to me at all as I would just be throwing a lot of money away.

I ended up being stuck with the bills because I needed treatment right away. I tried to file bankruptcy on them and was denied. Meanwhile the "minimum" payments set by the hospital were more than triple my monthly pay, before taxes were taken out. What I ended up having to do was move in with some relatives (fortunately I had some nice enough to allow this) at a significantly reduced rent than what I had been paying on my own, plus take on a second full-time job, plus additional part-time work on the side in my so-called free time.

In all, I tried filing bankruptcy three times in total and was denied each time. The first time I was denied I was told that you could not file bankruptcy on a teaching hospital because it is a university and any debts owed to a "public" institution cannot be filed on (meanwhile, I was sent there because of the seriousness of my condition and the need for certain specialists that were only available there and not at the hospital I was originally taken to). I was able to arrange several loans to pay off the hospital and then pay on the loans at slightly smaller payments than the hospital demanded. I tried to file on those, but was denied because I hadn't had the debt for at least 18 months. So, after the 18 months passed, I filed again. This time I was denied because of the newly required "means test" of my income that came with the new bankruptcy laws. With working two full time jobs and a part-time job I make too much money for the means test. They fail to take into account that a "normal" person shouldn't have to work an average of 96 hours per week income to survive (at the time I tried filing; am now down to 65 hours a week thankfully after several years of it), or that they will be able to do it indefinitely (I have just under three years of payments left on the debt unless I somehow come into some money).

So, with all my own experiences with medical debt and bankruptcy attempts, how on earth can someone making that much money, plus being insured, be able to file medical bankruptcy?

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Mark Thieme — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:37:03 GMT

Not all Democrats want "the same thing."

The same thing is what we have.

Most Democrats want something completely different.

(Despite pious, empty, platitudes to the contrary.)

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Mark Thieme — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:45:31 GMT

At least the good baron does not make crude and personal attacks.

"...you CAN respect the opinions of those who you disagree with."

Really?

Maybe I should check Zogby for my reality too.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

John B, Des Moines, IA — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:45:34 GMT

"they went looking for WMD for 8 years" and never found any because THERE WEREN'T ANY!!! 3,878 American deaths later and that decision was STILL WRONG. THAT is why Americans are so negative toward the war.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Mark Thieme — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:56:51 GMT

It has been noted that poll-poppers tend to the nasty, the ruthless, and to the mean-spirited.

Yet they are also easy pimps. Sensitive souls.

Watch 'em run to the bait if you disagree...

(as was famously said here by a notorious poll-popper) it never fails to be fun to watch the little ants scurry about on the hill... (nice fellow, that)

Go Hillary! (and Bill too)

With friends like these, you don't need adversaries.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

John B, Des Moines, IA — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:02:09 GMT

"Some union leader in Canada (name escapes me now)" Where's your link to that story? How can we verify that it's factual? How do we know it even happened? Without those things it might well be a complete fabrication.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

vanreuter, NY NY — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:03:13 GMT

"At least the good baron does not make crude and personal attacks." But you do...

"I can tell you he makes himself ridiculous going on about the Clinton event.
Those of us involved in government and media have a hard not not laughing
out loud when we see the funny little folks who scrape up enough money to be
5 seats away from Hillary, et all (Oh wow!) Mitchell, you nailed it. These
termites are called "starf---ers", for their wide eyes adrenaline rush
around celebrities.

I am pretty much off this blog for awhile, but could not help but comment
how van has taken over in one day. His adrenaline is rising from his brush
with destiny in the cheap seats last night.

Good luck to all. Sorry to leave you with a real nutcase, but enough is
enough.

It could be worse!
Mark Thieme (Sent Friday, October 26, 2007 4:20 PM)"

The meds are damaging your memory. That was your 8th exit line BTW...

Van
(I'm not attacking you, I'm promoting your funniest stuff...)

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

CitizenJ — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:06:53 GMT

J-

If you stick to the issues and realize that in the end, we (democrats) all want the same thing, rather than getting sidetracked into who wears a pin or the other minutia that comprises 90% what goes on here (and in the MSM)you CAN respect the opinions of those who you disagree with.

We will both be voting for the democratic candidate in the general election and those who fail to recognize that the major POLICY differences are between republicans and democrats and NOT between the democratic candidates, and are busy trying to tear the other guy's choice to pieces are ultimately unwitting members of a circular firing squad.

Van
vanreuter, NY NY (Sent Wednesday, November 28, 2007 2:19 PM)

Van,

Policy is not my first priority right now because, as you said, the top choices are all pretty similar. My priority is choosing someone who is better suited to get it done.

Also, I don't know if your comment was directed at me ("If you stick to the issues and realize that in the end, we (democrats) all want the same thing, rather than getting sidetracked into who wears a pin or the other minutia that comprises 90% what goes on here (and in the MSM)you CAN respect the opinions of those who you disagree with."), but I do respect the opinions of people I disagree with. I just don't respect many of the people who have those opinions. I'm that way by nature, but it's mostly due to the way they make their opinions know that does it for me.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Mark Thieme — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 20:16:36 GMT

The promotion is noted and appreciated. That one about starf--kers was pretty good. And so true.

Only a star----er would brag about such nonsense on a blog.

Bragging about sitting in the cheap seats at a third tier event and giving Hillary a birthday card with a dollar in it... now that was humor! (It was, wasn't it?)

I suspect that something I may have said when you blasted on with much self-fanfare a couple of months ago, may have hurt your feelings. Perhaps I unintentionally threatened your little bubble... whatever.

The point is that we come from different perspectives in the political arena, but ironically, we both tend to agree on the basics.

I am just not well fitted to be a starf---er (except when it comes to Ike Turner).

Speaking of irony, maybe you should buy a whole bottle and chug it. Good for digestion.

Good-night (for now), Gracie

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Sara, Cedar Rapids, Iowa — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:02:28 GMT

Amazed, Atlanta , Scott ,Kathy, SE PA, & SW GR, MI

Ignore the polls in Iowa, ignore the media's predictions. No one know, NO ONE KNOWS what will happen 1/3/08. If I didn't know the polls were statistically invalid (they could in the end have the order right, but not because they conducted statistically valid polls), and if I bought into the talking heads I would assume Sen. Biden has no chance. However, fortunately I am on the ground in Iowa and know better. Just this morning I got a call from a retired surgeon who had recently donated to Senator Biden (he saw his ad in Monday's paper), and wanted to know the steps necessary to vote for him. He thought he had to go through a lot of red tape, because he's a life long Republican. He was happy to hear that all he has to do is show up at his caucus and change his registration at the caucus and change back after the caucus.

At the event in Waverly Iowa last night (on C-span) a life long Republican said she changed her registration to caucus for Joe. At the women for Biden event in Des Moines Iowa a man whose wife drug him to the event was so impressed with Biden he will be caucusing for Biden. This man is a life long Republican from a family of life long Republicans, but he feels the country and world needs Joe's leadership. There are many intelligent people in Iowa. As Joe Biden would say "Keep the faith".

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

HILLARY 08 — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:18:22 GMT

Bill Clinton need some all timer pills, I think he is suffering from illusion Bee (Sent Wednesday, November 28, 2007 9:30 AM)
----------
Maybe you can give him some of yours Bee. You must have cartons full..Bee can ya spare a buzz?

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Jamie — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:27:55 GMT

The more I see and hear from Joe Biden, he is the one I will vote for. HE CERTAINLY HAS THE EXPERIENCE.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

KISS MY GRITS! — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:37:59 GMT

Hillary Clinton has a strong record of working with the "vast right wing conspiracy."

They love her as she does them.

Mark Thieme (Sent Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:52 AM)

----------------------------------------------------
And you have acknowledged the existence of this " "vast right wing conspiracy."

Do tell how this love fest is in evidence.
Do tell with graphic and indisputable proof. Please.
What records do you have?

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

H P Boston — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:47:28 GMT

The Thieme character was flawed from the beginning. We keep a diary of faux pas which we were never called on. One time Thieme has kids, other times he is single, and so on. It was always according to who was blogging..............................................

Mark now has a son-in-law! Smart one too and is heavy , top heavy at the "space center". Yup just last week he pop up ed, amazing!

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:48:31 GMT

Sara,

From your lips to God's ear.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

vanreuter, NY NY — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:20:11 GMT

Baron-

I will give you one thing, you are shameless...

As to your diatribe, I would refer you to Aesop and the tale of the fox and the grapes. I hear loud and clear your envy of those who have achieved anything of merit in the real world and their enjoyment of same and your deep-seated need to assuage the feelings of insecurity and failure that are engendered whenever confronted by those people and their unattainable lives.
It is to your detriment that your psychological challenges and/or going off meds caused you to post a series of reprehensible personal attacks (I can post them for you if memory fails.) that engendered an unbreachable chasm between us, that belies our shared political sentiments.

Van

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Sunyata — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:21:10 GMT

Dear Van,

You really nailed him this time. Everything you say at 5:20 is so right on. Compared to you, this guy is a real loser. How much he admires you shines through even his deranged babble.

Be careful, however, lest your personal attacks will get you tossed off the board again. What a loss that would be!

Hoping that won't happen again, I am on your side in this one, cuz.

As you are well aware, you are gifted with astounding insights. The world needs to hear you even louder...

I understand.

As always,

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:12:05 GMT

Van -

Did you portray Winchester on M*A*S*H?

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Joey Brancho, Chicago, IL — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:13:30 GMT

al Qaeda not in Saddam's Iraq? Hmm....who to believe? NBC commenters or al Qaeda themselves....(www.regimeofterror.com)....tough call libs, tough call.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

JenC — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:24:59 GMT

RE: Hillary & The Iraq War

There is a very simple way to drive home the point to voters that Hillary is LYING about her understanding of the Iraq war resolution and her intentions in voting for it - -

She says she was voting for diplomacy.

What was the TITLE of the Iraq war resolution?

The resolution’s title is as unambiguous as it can get - - "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution."

That’s it. - "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution."

When this country puts forth these sorts of resolutions, it does not do so lightly and it can only mean one thing. Another blogger wrote, “Let's not even consider that the title is kind of a tip-off, given that the two preceding acts that had the words "authorization for use of military force" in the title--against Iraq in 1991 and against Al Qaeda in '01, has led inexorably to actual wars.”

Sen. Clinton is NOT stupid. Everyone, tell Sen. Clinton not to insult the intelligence of voters.

She says she wasn’t voting for war? More double-talk.

Very simple. “What was the TITLE of the resolution, Sen. Clinton?”

She knew she was voting for war.

The American people don’t want more lies.

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

Phyllis G, Barbados — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:36:53 GMT

Oh-eight (D): Bill and Iraq

H P Boston — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 13:55:13 GMT

I was just cruising this thread and felt compelled to respond to Mr. Vanreuter's eloquent statement at 5:20 pm. It is stimulating to read such mastery of the language. I personally remain stimulated, now more than half an hour after first reading this unqualified piece of literary art.
A man who can use words like "assuage," "reprehensible," and, O my sweet lord,"unbreachable" in the same brief space either has a heck of a thesaurus or a really big dictionary (or, gasp,both!)
The hot spot for me, however, was the use of "engendered" twice when a word like "created" would have been so much less pretentious. But then pretentious is a good thing for those who need it. And I do. Need it.
I must say, I have read Mr. Vanreuter's posts before and they had so many silly numbers and bad punctuation that I missed his obvious (apparent?) brilliance.
More, Mr. Vanreuter, please. Your voice must not be silenced. Surely, you are a man of erudition and intellectual complexity. Keep it coming Jack.
Phyllis G, Barbados (Sent Wednesday, November 28, 2007 7:36 PM)

___________________________________________________
Mark, Give it a rest, we need you to return to your loony bin, ASAP!
I will warn you this one time only, I am prepared to take harsh measures to get YOU removed from this thread. It is time we all stop this nonsense and strive to solve the problems our country faces because of this needless war. Use your brain for a solution to healing our wounded economy and ruptured political system. You are a hindrance to all who love this country, go play somewhere else!