Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:25:35 GMT

Utter B.S.

Pols who, lets be honest, care an awful lot about getting electing, are lining up at all levels ... local /state / and federal, in red states and in blue, are lining up to endorse her.

If they thought she'd be a drag they'd be no where near her.

The only people still pushing this stuff are the Ivy League elites and the limo libs that are the base of Obama's support. Obama supporters have been playing this card for the last 6 months. They don't know squat about red states or the heartland. This is just another line of attack on Clinton.

The fact is there are very little coattail effects in politics anymore. Candidates down ticket are on tv, radio, the net, and get their own message out and run independently.

If the top of the ticket mattered so much Michigan, which is blue when voting for Prez would send 8 Republicans to the House to fill their 11 seats. If the top mattered so much, Democrats wouldn't dominate state politics in NC, while the Democrat loses at the top by double digits every 4 years.

Ask the Obama supporters an honest question. How is a black man from Indonesia, with the name Barack Hussein Obama, going to help Democrats in red states? HOW?

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

karlos — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:33:29 GMT

with all the in-fighting by the CE&O of the top tier where is the press for the lower tier? historically 30 days remaining can still provide adequate time for a dark horse to take this race. while the top three circle like vultures looking for an opening to snipe the opponents joe biden consistently makes his case for experience and policy and moves on. i'd like to see a poll which shows what biden would do against repubs running, something which is non-existent now. he clearly has the best handle on foreign affairs and more experience nationally the the top three CE&O combined.since the potus job domain is mostly international affairs, domestic being the domain of congress, why isn't he above his 6% in the polls? it can't be his debate performance as he has consistently scored high? anyone?

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

diane — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:55:05 GMT

Clinton: The reason the public stood by the Clintons during the scandals was because the republicans were so obvious in their on going game of trying to take down the Clintons. If they had been quiet then, bill would have done himself in with the public but, because they would not let up, the public saw it as a witch hunt and therefore stood by Bill.
it was their way of saying, cut it out.
But, after 8 years of it, the public was just weary and wanted congress to just do their job and the country to get on with business. They thought Bush would be more like his dad and therefore would have a fairly quiet period. Instead things got a whole lot worse.
The biggest challenge for people is going to be if they are viewing the 90s thru the lens of the horror of the bush years and romanticizing the 90s, as Hillary is trying to do. Or if they remember them realistically and if not for the gop witch hunt, bill would have been seen as a so-so president for democrats who were angry with his embrace of far too many republican policies.
Obama: he is right in his assessment with the Globe. if Clinton is the nominee, she brings with her not only the dislike from republicans and independents but, half the democrats who won't vote for her. This leaves her as a very weak nominee.
Obama does not cause those feelings in people. Most democrats will support him if he's the nominee and he'll bring along independents and a few republicans into the fold.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Steve Turner Cedar Falls Iowa — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 14:58:59 GMT

It's all because of Nixon's sweaty lip when he debated JFK. People listening to the radio, thought Nixon had won. Those watching TV gave it to Kennedy. When Smell-O-Vision is finally available, hearing and seeing won't matter anymore. People will just sniff the candidates (although some already stink without it).

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Daniel, NY — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:00:11 GMT

That NYT story makes no sense, please admit it.

(1) It does not quote a single Democrat expressing fears about Hillary -- even off the record. Not a single one.

(2) Every month a major paper prints such a story -- though it has been debunked by every red state poll. 
Kansas: A poll out last week has Clinton trailing Giuliani 49% to 43%. She leads Romney 48% to 44%. Bush won the state 62% to 37%: http://www.campaigndiaries.com/2007/11/presidential-diary-kansas-swinging-and.html 
Alabama, a SUSA poll out last week has Clinton trailing Giuliani 50-45 and ties Romney. Bush won the state 63% to 37%: http://www.campaigndiaries.com/2007/11/democrats-battle-over-health-care-as.html 
Kentucky: This is the red state where Clinton has been the most consistent. The most recent poll from the state was released on November 24th and has Clinton leading Giuliani 48% to 44% and crushing Romney 54% to 39%. Bush won the state by 20%: http://www.campaigndiaries.com/2007/11/morning-polls-clinton-leading-in-yet.html 
Missouri: In the latest Missouri poll, Clinton crushes Rudy Giuliani 48% to 39%, and is ahead by a similar margin against Romney: http://www.campaigndiaries.com/2007/11/democrats-strong-in-minnesota-and.html 
In Georgia, Clinton trails Giuliani 48% to 44% in a three-weeks-old poll: http://www.campaigndiaries.com/2007/11/three-states-that-were-not-close-at-all.html. Kerry got demolished here 58% to 41%: http://www.campaigndiaries.com/2007/11/three-states-that-were-not-close-at-all.html

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Lewis, Cincinnati, Ohio — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:03:06 GMT

Dickie---he's going to help democrats in Red States just like any other democrat could or would. If you're not going to vote for Barack Obamam b/c he's black you probably aren't going to vote for Hillary Clinton b/c she's a woman either. For a second, I'll ask you to try not to be ingnorant and to view Obama objectively. He has a chance to be a truly transformational figure in American politics. While he consider himself black, he actually is bi-racial.
He doesn't even look like the bad black man you obviously have a problem with. Your thinking is sophomoric and frankly not very progressive. Are you sure you're even a deomocrat?

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Dot, Illlinois — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:08:04 GMT

Karlos:

Someone posted here that part of Senator Biden's problem is that he did not have a strong organization early on in the campaign and that has hurt his ability to get his message out to Iowans. Also, this lack of solid base has made his efforts to finance his campaign very difficult. Just a theory someone presented for consideration. But, he continues to have the correct stance on foreign policy (see story on Iran's nuclear threat) so perhaps it is not too late for his message to reach voters.

I saw an interview with a newspaper editor from Iowa in which the editor called the race in Iowa "fluid," meaning that any thing could happen. Editor said many caucus goers had not made up their minds and may not do so until the night of their caucus, so I don't think one can give too much credence to polls.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Ron, TX — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:14:38 GMT

Ask the Obama supporters an honest question. How is a black man from Indonesia, with the name Barack Hussein Obama, going to help Democrats in red states? HOW?

Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC (Sent Tuesday, December 04, 2007 9:25 AM)
===

Easy question with an easy answer:
His name doesn't end in "Clinton". Republicans HATE Clinton. They will ALL rally and DESTROY her, refuse to move. Check out the USA-Today Gallop poll released yesterday, her unfavorability ratings officially hit -50%-

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

George, Brunswick, ME — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:16:19 GMT

According to a Rasumussen poll (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_2008__1/2008_presidential_election/election_2008_biden_vs_giuliani_and_romney) the numbers are not bad. Still many people abstained - so Biden has lots of ground to cover in getting voters to know more about him. The cute one-liners may get you noticed but he needs to push his substantive message of experience more and milk his answers at the debate for all they are worth.

Giuliani 42% Biden 40%
Romney 39% Biden 39%

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

CitizenJ — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:17:18 GMT

Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC (Sent Tuesday, December 04, 2007 9:25 AM)

I know I'm wasting my "breath" here, but do you really think you know more about "red states and the heartland" than those "Ivy League elites" who have degrees and have done other cool stuff like study it? Or do you more know about the constituencies of the people actually on the ticket than they do? I really doubt it Dickie.

Here is the effect (at least in part): If Clinton is on the ticket, chances are more Republicans will come out to vote against her who otherwise would have stayed home. While they are in the booth, they are going to vote for the Republican Senator/Rep that is also on the ticket, thereby hurting the Democrat.

"Ask the Obama supporters an honest question. How is a black man from Indonesia, with the name Barack Hussein Obama, going to help Democrats in red states? HOW?"

This is not an honest question, and it warrants no response, as it exposes 1) your intolerance level, which is related to 2) your intelligence level.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:23:13 GMT

Citizen J:

Even Republican pollsters admit that the "Clinton" effect is already built into the trial head to head numbers that we are seeing. The numbers that show Clinton doing very very well, in key states, against the GOP contenders.

Yours is just more of a baseless line of attack intended to sway a few voters by scaring them.

By the way check out Obama's numbers in NJ. PA and OH don't look good either. Can we win by losing NJ?

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Molly, Iowa City — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:35:51 GMT

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Jen — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:38:09 GMT

RE: Hillary Tries to Commit Murder/Suicide in Iowa

Everyone!

The Clinton campaign is obviously reeling from the effects of their candidate's failed attempts to go after Obama over the weekend. Patti Solis Doyle, Clinton's Campaign Manager is now resorting to accusing the Obama campaign of playing "dirty tricks" in Iowa such as negative push-polling to test the effectiveness of anti-Hillary messages, and saying that Obama staffers are attacking Hillary's staffers - all of this to DRAG HIM DOWN into the mud. Here's the link from the Des Moines Register. You’ve got to read this for yourself.

Des Moines Register
Clinton e-mail warns more "dirty tricks" cropping up:
http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071204/NEWS/71204006/-1/SPORTS09

We all know Obama isn’t behind any negative campaigning. This is getting bad. Hillary is trying to commit "murder-suicide” in Iowa to prevent Obama from winning there!

They are accusing Obama of playing dirty tricks when in fact their planting of this total MIS-information IS the dirty trick. Unbelievable.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

CitizenJ — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:41:32 GMT

Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC (Sent Tuesday, December 04, 2007 10:23 AM)

What baseless line of attack? I simply pointed out that those "Ivy League elites" probably know more about it than you. That's not really an attack, and if it is scaring anyone, then that is their problem.

Another thing, I tend to not believe pollsters of any type. Second, This isn't about Clinton doing well, its about the downticket candidates.

And lastly, are you talking about primary or general numbers? If you're talking about general numbers, I think being a year out from the election makes it impossible to have any real numbers. But yes, we can win if we lose New Jersey.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

sg, michigan — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:44:33 GMT

The reason the public stood by the Clintons during the scandals...diane
---------------------------------------

Very well written, diane. Because it was a solely a GOP witch hunt against the Clintons, I stood by the Clintons. However, I feel they were never without scandal (Bill's infidelity, Hillary ignoring it, Whitewater, last-minute pardons, etc.). I'm weary that these scandals will merely fester should Hillary get elected.

It's time to elect a different leader in the whitehouse. Obama appears to be a suitable, honest leader. Let's face it, Hillary has to stretch all the way back to kindergarten to smear him.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Bee — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:46:57 GMT

Dickie Flatts, Charlotte, NC,

Your argument suggests how bigot you are; I’ll be extremely disappointed if you work for Hillary Clinton. For your information, Obama is an American citizen and not from Indonesia as you claimed.

Secondly, get your facts right before you post any venom. You can attack Obama but let your argument be substantiated with facts. Enough of talking point and get your head straight.

The era of Jim Crowe and George Bush fear tactics is over. Freedom will reign with truth, period.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Rawlings Stuart NM — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 15:49:32 GMT

Joe Biden: "That's why I want to be very clear: If the President takes us to war with Iran without congressional approval, I will call for his impeachment,"

Eh, Joe, intelligence reports say there is no reason to attack Iran anymore. So why would Bush attack them? Yet another success story for the Bush presidency, this time a diplomatic one.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

karlos — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:00:08 GMT

so let me see, biden's tied or with the margin of error for national election against repubs with limited exposure but i'd like to know his favorable vrs negatives for same. hills negs are way up there and while obama's are lower still considerable, what's biden, anyone?

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:15:16 GMT

"This is not an honest question, and it warrants no response, as it exposes 1) your intolerance level, which is related to 2) your intelligence level."

Citizen J:

We need to be careful here. Being dismissive of someone you consider "Red" or someone arguing the Red point of view always gets Democrats into trouble.

Biden said on "Real Time with Bill Maher" in early 2006 that the problem with the Democratic Party is that we have a condescending attitude towards religious constituencies. He related the story of talking to one of his fellow Senators, whom he did not name (although I have a feeling it was Charles Schumer [D-NY]) about his own (Biden's) mother who still lived with him at the age of 92 and went to church every day. Biden said she said a rosary every day for her brother who died in the WWII Pacific Theater.

Biden asked his colleague what he thought of that, to which the colleague replied that he thought it was "quaint". Biden said - "Quaint? You are calling that quaint? If we weren't friends I would knock you into next week. Don't call my mother's religious beliefs "quaint". (I am paraphasing but that was the gist)

That was the moment I became a Biden supporter.

All points of view need to be respected, if not agreed with.

Dickie Flatts may not articulate your point of view but he does articulate at least one point of view, and I am assuming many more. When either side of the political spectrum dismisses the views of an entire constituency on the other side of the aisle because we deem it intolerant or lacking intelligence undermines the veracity of a nation which was founded upon the belief that each citizen, and their point of view, is valid.

"Ask the Obama supporters an honest question. How is a black man from Indonesia, with the name Barack Hussein Obama, going to help Democrats in red states? HOW? "

Dickie asks an honest question. It may not be a question you are comfortable with but it shouldn't be dismissed. Clinton is constantly under scrutiny regarding her electability. She has been from the start. I think it is a valid question of the Clinton campaign. I think it is a valid question for the Obama campaign.

It is the nature of the beast. Do Democrats want to win for the good of the party and the country as a whole, OR do Democrats want to say to all the Red constituents - WE WERE RIGHT, YOU WERE WRONG!

Electability is critical. All candidates, first and second tier, need to be evaluated from a larger perspective. Dickie Flatts is part of that perspective. We owe it to democracy to be a bit more tolerant ourselves.

I think we all know who won the sanity war. Good manners would say to move on, secure in that knowledge.

...
...
...

or not.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

CitizenK — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:31:24 GMT

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Dave, Tn — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:46:43 GMT

Most racist in this country (black, white, brown) are hiding in the democrat party. It's the safe place to be when the media hasn't changed their templates since 1960

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

--NSMSNBC — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:48:34 GMT

"The question for the current campaign is whether they nonetheless deserve some blame because of their behavior or their style of politics."

Of course they deserve blame for THEIR behavior and THEIR style of politics. Everybody (sane) knows that Clinton's policy positions are not W's, but it is her attitude, her behavior and her political style that screams Bush-Cheney, win at all cost and without integrity.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

H P Boston — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:59:34 GMT

You make it sound like Biden saying he'll call for the impeachment of Bush if he attacks Iran without congressional approval is new. He said it during the CNN debate in Vegas. Look at the transcript.

He did give a great speech to an overfull crowd yesterday in Iowa City before the Iowa City Council on Foreign Relations. And was also well received at his next stop at the IMU before U of I students.
Molly, Iowa City (Sent Tuesday, December 04, 2007 10:35 AM)

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++WOW I am really listening to Biden Now! I am for impeachment asap but if he gives a hard promise to do so I will vote for Biden. The top of MY priority list is IMPEACHMEMENT AND JAIL FOR THE CRIMINALS IN THE WH! I have faith in Biden to handle foreign affairs and the hard choices we must make on Health Care and the Economy. He also has a PLAN for Iraq!

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

H P Boston — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:09:06 GMT

Very well written, diane. Because it was a solely a GOP witch hunt against the Clintons, I stood by the Clintons. However, I feel they were never without scandal (Bill's infidelity, Hillary ignoring it, Whitewater, last-minute pardons, etc.). I'm weary that these scandals will merely fester should Hillary get elected.
_____________________________________________

Oh my frigging foot! So much scandal. So bad, Can you see dead soldiers? Can you see flag draped coffins coming home to America? Well no because the KILLER IN CHIEF won't let YOU!! Can you see the raping of the constitution? NO? Well then you have not been looking! Can you see a blubbering idiot who can barely understand let alone read a comic strip, can you? Scandals? We have so many you must be frigging blind!! The KILLER IN CHIEF must be happy you are blind. I'm sure you never noticed THE LIAR IN CHIEF IS THE WORST PERSON IN THE WORLD!

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

CitizenJ — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:30:37 GMT

Dickie asks an honest question. It may not be a question you are comfortable with but it shouldn't be dismissed. Clinton is constantly under scrutiny regarding her electability. She has been from the start. I think it is a valid question of the Clinton campaign. I think it is a valid question for the Obama campaign.

I said it's not an honest question because it isn't. Obama is not from Indonesia. A question about electibility IS an honest question, but framing it around an incorrect statement about his origins and the irrelevance of his name is what makes it dishonest. I have no problem with questioning electability.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

CitizenJ — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:39:34 GMT

Citizen J

You must be joking again here. Just read everything again before posting. I feel that you like to try very hard to make people to change their mind to vote for Obama, but don't you think voters nowadays are not just go by what you say ? They are not fools like you. Politicians know very well whom they are going to "get closer" or "draw distance". All your postings are so baseless, no knowledge of what is exactly going on now. Don't waist your time, seriously. You are not going to get any benefits by doing what you are doing now. People only laugh at what you say and pay no attention.

CitizenK (Sent Tuesday, December 04, 2007 11:31 AM)

CitizenK,

Whether someone is or is not influenced by what I post makes absolutely no difference to me. If you don't want to read my posts, all you have to do is roll that little ball on your mouse right on by them.

And you are right, my degree in politics in no way qualifies me to know anything about what is going on here. I am, as you said, "waisting" my time.

I actually get a lot out of posting on these boards. One, I enjoy talking about politics. Two, I get a lot of enjoyment out of posts like yours; posts from people who are paying so little attention to what I write that they just can't resist responding.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

CJ — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:44:19 GMT

If you want to talk race. Obama could mobilize 80-90% of the black vote...do you realize the type of numbers blacks have in the southern states..it'd be a landslide. Poll lines that stretch around buildings from those who have strived to see such a man become POTUS.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Ellis B. Kingman, Az. — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 17:52:25 GMT

Forget polls, common sense is more accurate, Clinton is overloaded with negative baggage from years of scandals, shady campaign finance, alignment with and pardon of criminal fundraisers and partners. The repubs will have a feast on Clinton's character. Obama is in the wrong place at the wrong time. A man with the name Barack Hussein Obama who refuses to wear an American flag pin on his lapel or place his hand over his heart during the National Anthem will be toast in a general election.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Scott, PA — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:07:40 GMT

Er, Rawlings,
Biden was the only one who pointed out that Iran doesn't poses nuclear capabilites during the debate, the only one, and he siad we should be focusing on Pakistan. So while teh other democrats are posturing on what they would do, Biden is already acting in a manner befitting a presidency.
IS anyone else as un-impressed with the other candidates foreign policy as I am? They always seem to miss it.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Joe Einloth — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:19:09 GMT

Thank you, Dave, Tn (home of the KLAN, btw!)

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Kathy, SE PA — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:37:03 GMT

Like you, Scott PA, I am completely un-impressed with the other candidates' foreign policy. Biden has the knowledge and experience and it shows. Why he is not polling better is beyond me.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:41:26 GMT

CitizenJ -

I think the "from Indonesia" indicates Obama's early years which he himself has touted at "foreign policy experience." I didn't read it as being born in Indonesia because if he was he would be ineligible to run for president. I think, for some voters, Indonesia and "Hussein" is the problem. And to that mindset, my comments still apply.

But, yes, you are correct in that Obama was not born in Indonesia so not responding is a valid rebuke. My apologies for the confusion.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

CitizenJ — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:53:50 GMT

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA (Sent Tuesday, December 04, 2007 1:41 PM)

If the intention of the comment was that he lived in Indonesia, it could have been made a lot more clear. As for gaining foreign policy experience by living in Indonesia, he never claimed that it was his only experience. And I think there is a certain perspective to be gained by living overseas. Whether or not he can gain that perspective after this many years is a debatable topic.

I do not doubt that there are voters who won't vote for him because of his middle name, but we have to realize that these are so few that it won't constitute a large enough voting bloc to sway the election. And chances are, if they aren't voting for him because of his middle name, they probably weren't going to vote for him in the first place. Therefore, in my opinion, this issue won't be as big of deal as the spin suggests.

But my opinion doesn't mean much. CitizenK has effectively tarnished my reputation. I should like to add that my comments here are not intended to influence anyone's opinion.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Bruce, NV — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 18:55:25 GMT

I wonder if Sen. Biden knows that only the House can call for impeachment and the Senate holds the impeachment trial.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Richard Lewis, Fresno CA — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:05:45 GMT

So Senator Biden. Can you name one crime Bush should be impeached for? Just one. I knew you couldn't.

Biden, just like all the other Democrats, just another poser. All fluff. No brains. No heart.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

jerry/corpus christi texas — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:11:29 GMT

(1) It does not quote a single Democrat expressing fears about Hillary -- even off the record. Not a single one.

Kind of hard when nobody wants Hillary with them when they campaign, much less admit to the fact in case Bill and his goons decide to pay them a visit.....

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

--NSMSNBC — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 19:30:16 GMT

Elizabeth: Absolutely, Indonesia and Barack Hussein Obama is an issue for some voters, but I believe that it might also be a positive for others. Plus, the people who wouldn't vote for somebody based on race, gender, name or creed, well, they'd probably vote Republican anyway--I said it.

As for touting his childhood as foreign policy experience, I don't feel that's quite accurate. He said that the influences he gained living abroad offered him a unique insight that he uses today in his foreign policy decisions such as speaking out against invading Iraq and on the Senate Foreign relations committee. I don't think he ever claimed foreign policy experience as a youth, that he was an ambassador of our great nation. There is a very distinct difference. In other words, living abroad might be construed as foreign experience, but not foreign policy experience. Like the flag pin, it's something that opponents can and have twisted into a negative message. So in that sense, I don't think that it's a fair and honest critique of Obama.

Nobody shuns Dodd or Richardson for promoting their bilingual skills for the job, not that they should.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Sharon Stone — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:00:27 GMT

H P Boston 12:09 You nailed it!!

Bush (scandal) in chief has cost our country lives for no reason. He has ruined our economy and the dollar. Cost us jobs and gained us enemies, turned Russia and China against us. Ignored our health care crisis. He stands behind big oil and big drug and big credit card companies.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Oscar P., Central Falls RI — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:08:06 GMT

I am really listening to Biden Now! I am for impeachment asap but if he gives a hard promise to do so I will vote for Biden. The top of MY priority list is IMPEACHMEMENT AND JAIL FOR THE CRIMINALS IN THE WH! I have faith in Biden to handle foreign affairs and the hard choices we must make on Health Care and the Economy. He also has a PLAN for Iraq!

H P Boston

++++++++++

Hillary!! You better start bailing water! Everyone is jumping ship!

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Molly, Iowa City — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:38:20 GMT

Here is an example regarding bias reporting. I was at the event, there was an overflow crowd into the hallways. The Cedar Rapids Gazette story is below, followed by part of the First Read link to the Register story. Note the difference in the side of the crowd.

Biden puts Bush ‘on notice’ on Iran

Senator’s message well-received in I.C.
By Gregg Hennigan
The Gazette
IOWA CITY — Democratic presidential hopeful Joe Biden told an Iowa City audience Monday that if President Bush starts a war with Iran without congressional approval, he would call for the president’s impeachment.
“I do not say this lightly nor do I say it to be provocative. I am deadly earnest,” the sixterm Delaware senator told nearly 200 people in a policy speech on Iran at the Iowa City Public Library.
Biden’s comment, which brought cheers from the audience, came the same day a U.S. intelligence report said Iran halted its nuclear weapons development program in 2003.
Tension between the United States and Iran has been increasing over concerns about Iran’s nuclear intentions, and some critics have alleged that the Bush administration wants to take military action against the country.
Biden is polling in single digits both in Iowa and nationally with Iowa’s Jan. 3 caucuses looming. As chairman of the Senate’s Foreign Relations Committee, he was in his element Monday speaking at an event hosted by the Iowa City Foreign Relations Council.
He said he was putting the Bush administration “on notice” with his impeachment warning, saying the Constitution would require that Congress give the OK for a war.
Biden made it clear where he stood.
“War with Iran is not just a bad option, it would be a disaster,” he said.
The ruling Iranian regime is unpopular in the country, Biden claimed, but any military action would unite Iranians. An attack also would inflame militants across the Middle East, causing problems in Israel, Afghanistan and Pakistan, he said.
Also, the U.S. military is stretched thin and can’t handle another conflict, he said.
At the same time, a nuclear Iran would be a major threat, Biden said. But instead of regime change in Iran, America needs to focus on “conduct change,” he said.
This can be done by working with allies and dealing with Iran through a combination of pressure and incentives, Biden said.
The United States should also exploit cracks between the Iranian government’s ruling elite and the people.
At home, alternative fuels and energy-saving technologies need to be embraced so that America can end its dependence on the “Axis of Oil,” Biden said. The term was a reference to the “Axis of Evil” phrase coined by President Bush to describe unfriendly countries, including Iran.
Biden later participated in a student-hosted forum on the University of Iowa campus."

First Read link to the Register story below:

"Iowa City, Ia. — Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden vowed Monday to work to impeach President Bush should he pursue military action in Iran.

Biden, a Delaware senator and chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, referred to a newly released U.S. intelligence assessment finding that Iran - despite the Bush administration's assertions otherwise - has not restarted its nuclear weapons program. There is "a significant window of opportunity in which to act to avoid the stark choice of either war, or a nuclear Iran," he said.
Advertisement

* * *

He spoke to about 60 people at a foreign-policy forum."

The Gazette reports nearly 200 people were present, but the Register reports "about 60 people" were present. Anyone who was there, as I was, knows that the Gazette may have under estimated attendance by a few (nearly 200 implies less than 200, given all seats were taken, and the overflow crowd, the actual attendance was something more than 200)

Why did the Register report there were about 60 people, when over three times (and actually close to 4 times that number) that amount were present.

This is a simple example of bias reporting. Did the Register writer not want the DC pundits to know that Senator Biden is getting numbers close to Clinton and Edwards at events like this? And the Register didn't even mention the event that Biden went to at the Iowa Memorial Union, where Biden spoke before two student events. The crowd of college students was over 100, I wonder how many the Register would have said were there if they bothered reporting on it. 10?

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Scott, PA — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:41:14 GMT

Yeah, 35 years in the senate, through Nixon and Clinton. He knows the halls inside and out. That is why he will be able to work it better than any other candidate.
That is precisely why he works it better than any other candidate, and he doesn't "fall"m in line with the other newcomers. He votes with his conscience and with confidence. The others wait until the last minute. The others wait while he leads.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Molly, Iowa City — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:42:44 GMT

I wonder if Sen. Biden knows that only the House can call for impeachment and the Senate holds the impeachment trial.

Bruce, NV

Yes he does, he teaches Constitutional law. He said that he has drawn up articles of impeachment, and would "call for" impeachment, he didn't say he'd file, or bring articles of impeachment against Bush. Calling for impeachment is recommending impeachment, coming out in favor of.

Do you not believe Senator Biden would not be able to get several Congressman to file the articles of impeachment he has prepared? Of course he would.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Leslie, Savannah — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:48:32 GMT

Well, I am an Ivy League liberal, and I have a doctorate degree, and I am a devout Democrat, and I am almost as idealistic as you can be. But, while I wish that Dickie's question about the electability of a black man with the name of Barack Hussein Obama was not a valid question in 2007-2008, I have to say - and if the rest of you would be truly honest with yourselves - that very question has been the great white elephant in the room which everyone has been trying to ignore. No one has wanted to ask it, including myself, for fear of being jumped on like those of you who jumped on Dickie. He made a valid and, unfortunately, I believe, an ultimately correct point. Obama will not win the general election. The majority of this country will not vote to put him in the white house and in charge of national security, welfare, education, and social issues to the extent that any president is "in charge" of those areas. I am sorry that we have not come that far. But the ugly truth is we haven't.

I am not a racist. In fact I fight racism and prejudice everyday. And, while I encourage others and myself to fight narrow-minded people everyday, I/we cannot turn a blind eye to the reality that the majority of the voting public - for one reason or another (prejudice, racism, disagreement with his ideas, or opinions that his experience is inadaquate) will not put Obama in the white house.

The key question for Democrats in these primaries is the electability of the Democratic nominee in the general election. Unfortunately whoever I think is the best and the smartest and the "right" candidate to sit in the oval office is not the prudent question. "Right" does not always equal electable. The prudent question is, unfortunately, who can win the general election. Some people eqate that way of thinking with "dumbing down" the election process, or siding with "the lowest common denominator". Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. It doesn't really matter what you call it or how you feel about it. For now, it is reality. The majority of the voting American public will not elect a "President Obama" in 2008. And while I wish I could say that the majority of voting Americans are that enlightened, they are not.

So, while Dickie's question may rub people the wrong way, he is asking a realistic question. Whoever you are supporting, truthfully and objectively ask yourself if s/he is electable by the majority of the voting public; and remember, the answer to that question doesn't hinge on whoever you think is the "right" candidate.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Sara, Cedar Rapids, Iowa — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 20:48:48 GMT

"Like you, Scott PA, I am completely un-impressed with the other candidates' foreign policy. Biden has the knowledge and experience and it shows. Why he is not polling better is beyond me.

Kathy, SE PA"

Kathy the polls are statistically invalid, which is one reason for the huge differences between polls conducted at the same time by different polling companies.

Senator Biden is doing well in Iowa, but if people want to help Senator in Iowa they should contribute to his campaign. The more funds he raises the more commercials he will be able to air the last week before the caucus, when close to 50% of caucus goers make up their mind. Iowa is wide open Senator Biden can win!

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Lee Holmes — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:03:29 GMT

Biden is running his needle on a broken record and for this,he will lose the presidency. It is not enough to turn ''impeachment''into a mantra. It was the leftwing,begun by Sy Hersh in 2006 while writing for the NEW YORKER,that began the fantasy of an Iranian ''invasion'',moving Cheney into central casting as Darth Vader. Biden is now playing from that wornout playbook.
Thus as we explored on another post,where is Bidens ''diplomacy''card with Iran? How would HE play it? What would Biden do short of war[as we are in this condition at present],to stop Iran from realizing its nuclear weapons ambitions? [and where the blazes were guys like Dodd and Biden[who never saw an opportunity to crow about his Senate foreign relations cred that he didnt pass up], BEFORE 2003 when the NIE asserted that Iran was indeed,working on a nuclear weapons program]?

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 21:13:57 GMT

Citizen J:

I agree regarding " if they aren't voting for him because of his middle name, they probably weren't going to vote for him in the first place." I just think it is one of those things that can, in the hand of Republicans, be used against him and we, Democrats, are better served by hashing the topic out amongst ourselves during the primaries lest we are surprised by a deeper level of distrust within our own constituency than we anticipated.

Regarding Indonesia - It isn't Obama's only experience but, per his own statement - it is his best experience. I will agree with my guy, Joe, in saying yes, I am sure that it is his best foreign policy experience.

Regarding reputations (and I am not sure if you were being facetious) I don't know what Citizen K said but an intelligently articulated argument cannot be tarnished.

Keep on truckin'

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Gary, Franklin, WI — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 22:15:41 GMT

Bruce, NV

I wonder if you know that any member of the public or of Congress can call upon the House to consider impeachment. Yes you are correct that only the House votes on articles of impeachment. If the House votes to impeach, the Senate conducts the trial and votes to either convict or acquit the person impeached.

Under your logic, the public would have had no role whatever in voting articles of impeachment against Nixon. In fact, these are all politicians and they influence the work of each other, just as their constituents influence them.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Tue, 04 Dec 2007 23:25:44 GMT

NSMSNBC:

Here is what Obama said. Personally, I find it to be a bit of a stretch. I hope he is not saying that his childhood experiences trump Biden's foreign policy expertise. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. Either way, I simply do not agree with him and find his statement exceedingly condescending.

CHICAGO SUN-TIMES
11/19/07

CLARION, Iowa — Democrat Barack Obama said Monday his childhood experience in Asia and his family in Kenya give him a greater foreign policy understanding than politicians who merely take junkets to other countries.

The first-term Illinois senator is frequently asked whether he has the foreign policy credentials to be president, and he faced the question again at a town hall meeting in Clarion.

‘‘I spent four years living overseas when I was a child living in Southeast Asia,’’ said Obama, who was born in Hawaii and spent four years in Indonesia. ‘‘My father is from Kenya. That’s where I got my name. He’s passed away now, but I still have family.’’

‘‘A lot of my knowledge about foreign affairs is not what I just studied in school. It’s actually having the knowledge of how ordinary people in these other countries live.’’

Obama contrasted that with tightly controlled congressional trips overseas.

‘‘You get picked up at the airport by a state convoy and a security detail. They drive you over to the ambassador’s house and you get lunch. Then you go take a tour of some factory or some school. Children do a native dance.’’

Obama said foreign policy decisions are rooted in an understanding of foreign cultures, and he argued he has a much keener perception than his rivals.

‘‘It’s very hard for you to make good foreign policy decisions. Foreign policy is all about judgment,’’ said Obama. ‘‘It’s understanding what the world looks like from the outside.’’

//

--Maybe Barack should go on a "junket" to Iraq with Biden. It will be Biden's 9th trip to the war zone. To bad Barack wasn't able to go on a junket to Serbia to meet with Milosevich; and, quite a shame Barack didn't go on that silly little junket to China in 2001. You remember the one:
The four-member Biden-led congressional delegation (CODEL), with Senators Paul Sarbanes, Arlen Specter and Fred Thompson, will meet with the top leadership in each country, including Taiwan President Chen Shui-bian and Foreign Minister Tien Hung-mao, Chinese President Jiang Zemin and Premier Zhu Rongji and Korean President Kim Dae-Jung.

I know it doesn't compare to Obama's experience but it will have to do.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

--NSMSNBC — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 04:52:49 GMT

Elizabeth--

I don't care where he gets his wisdom from, so long as he's right, and he's right, in my opinion, on Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, that not talking to a country isn't a punishment, the promise of diplomacy (and not the aggressive kind that H.R.C. proposes), affordable healthcare w/o mandates (I like Biden's better) and a hope that we can have a better tomorrow. It is amazing how wise he is in addition to intelligence, beyond his youthful years, and maybe that's what we need. Dislike him for his pompous, professor-like persona (probably not right, but fair to do), I'm going to like him for his wisdom, change and hope. But like I said before, it's no different than Dodd claiming an edge in foreign policy because he's fluent in Spanish or Clinton claiming an edge, because she was unofficially close to the action or McCain because he was a POV. It's no different than Edwards claiming to know poverty because his father was a mill worker, Giuliani claiming to be tough because he was a trial lawyer pissing off the mafia, or Huckabee claiming to be the social conservative uniter because of his baptist credentials, or Richardson claiming that he has judgement because he met with world bullies (and boy oh boy, that worked out for him time after time). Some of these fair comments by the candidates, some of them not. Anyway, it's all based on perception, the candidate that can get the edge wins; none of them are different. If living in another culture makes Obama feel like he's got an edge over his opponents in foreign policy experience, I'm not going to argue, because it sounds like a legitimate claim to me when explained. But it clearly is not the miss-information passed along claiming that he claimed 6-year-old foreign policy experience. That was a lie, and that is my point.

I'm not going to compare Obama's experience with Biden's, it's no comparison. I just like the wisdom of Barack's decisions now. (You did bring up the point about visiting Iraq, though. I would like to know how often our Presidential candidates each have visited--that would be an interesting factoid from FR. Obama's numbers probably would disappoint me, like Clinton's would others.) My comparison of Obama's experience is much equivalent to Clinton's. Put Biden, Dodd, Richardson on a scale next to the three frontrunners--there is a big gap. I think it disappointion how Hillary stretches her experiences to make them seem greater. Bill Clinton today, compared her experience levels with Biden, Dodd and Richardson's. Not too fair, but as a H.R.C. VP supporter, that's okay for some reason, and I don't get that. That's not consistent.

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Scott, PA — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 14:04:13 GMT

I'd bet that Biden would be able to get Congress Senate and the UN to impeach me and I'm just an architect!

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Ralph, LA California — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 15:40:59 GMT

MSNBC is turning to be an pro-OBAMA anti-Clinton political hackery machine!!! Great job on being so biased!!!

Oh-eight (D): The downballot effect

Elizabeth Sullivan, San Diego, CA — Wed, 05 Dec 2007 16:10:20 GMT

NSMSNBC -

I will now stop responding to anything about Obama. His supporters, like him, are determined to see the least experienced candidate in the White House. I say point your spaceship to the sun and FULL THROTTLE. See you in November 08 when yet another Republican is in the White House because Democrats elected the guy who gave a really good speech at the 2004 Democratic Convention.

I would be amused if I wasn't so disheartened.