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jaycee, Ventura, California — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:18:59 GMT

Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

Bob Dylan

The old folks are coming around. It’s just been so long that it will take some of us a little while to remember.

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adam/NYC — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:27:51 GMT

The Clintons have taken on the Republican Attack Machine….

AND FAILED EVERY TIME.

Healthcare Reform: A Massive Failure handing Congress to the Republicans for 14 years

Gay Rights: Bill Clinton caved and gave into the bigoted and hateful don’t ask don’t tell.

Genocide: Rwanda was a disgusting failure as the Clintons pandered to the Republicans afraid to make a mistake.

Iraq: Hillary Clinton caved into the Republican Drum beat to invade, and insane idea, she voted for it under political pressure to look tough. Perhaps a million people have died, been injured, or displaced.

Iran: See above, perhaps a million more might be afected

Bankruptcy: Hillary caved to the Corporate interest, although she was “glad the bill failed” she voted for it under political pressure from the right.

Time and time again, the Clintons are faced with Republican Political Pressure and they fail to stand up for what they claim to believe. Hillary has no moral courage, the defining quality that separates a leader from a politician.

Please step aside Mrs. Clinton, you are dividing and destroying a great Democratic Party.

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Discusted — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:39:13 GMT

To all Americans,
I live in another part of the world.
My country is fighting with America in Afganistan and are dying too.
First, you sent the world, a hyped up George Bush.The saviour.A total failure.
Look where that put America and what that brought the world?
Now who are are attempting to repeat history by introducing another hyped up (Rock Star)Obaman who yes is flawed,inexperieced and will also be a loser. At least George Bush had the experience.If you want the world to really reject you ,keep doing what your doing. If you think that what world thinks doen't matter just look at your economy. Look at the lack of allies that you have. Look at Russia's statement that they will take you on in another arms race.So you think Obama will be the hero and rescue from all trouble.WAKE UP, and finally do something right for once. Give your head a shake and get off the Hollywood idol stuff and see the real world for once.
MSNBC be fair and finally show some other views than just the one's that you like.

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Russ, Elba, NY — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:39:35 GMT

You can't count Senator Clinton out, but it must be disturbing to her campaign that her opponent is cutting into her base without any evidence that she is stealing from his. Top that with polls that indicate that Senator Obama is stronger against Senator McCain in the general, and the vaunted "Big Mo" could be real, finally. The Clinton campaign is boasting about re-invigorated fund raising with claims of a boost in online donations. However, as anemic as their Internet fund raising was to begin with, this is akin to saying you doubled your bowling average when it went from 50 to 100, while your opponent is stuck at 200. And, it remains to be seen whether this is more than just a flurry of concerned activity by already stalwart Hillraisers, but not the infusion of new support that they're silently inferring is happening.

Her campaign's bemoaning of the media being soft on Obama while claiming she's weathered storms is liable to not only make people think perhaps there's not that much Senator Obama is hiding, but it also reminds people of a certain age of the considerable history of crisis and conflict that she would carry into the general election. If there was a lurking issue lying in the tall weeds that could sink Senator Obama's campaign, it would stretch credulity to believe its been ignored by the Clinton machine in the face of the demonstrated threat to her 'inevitability'.

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Larry Cosco, Jacksonville IL — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:40:40 GMT

// Mrs. Clinton’s firewall of Texas and Ohio.

Rudy had a firewall too.

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Bill Johnson, Anaconda, Montana — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 14:57:39 GMT

Is this the beginning of the End?

Or maybe the middle of the end.

This morning brings a new day. Not just because the Earth turns, but also the returns.

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Paul Miller, Woodbridge, VA — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:02:52 GMT

I heard this morning that Maryland votes cast after 8 p.m. were cast using paper ballots. There's apparently some state law that requires voting machines to be turned off by 8 p.m. Those paper ballots won't be counted until tomorrow. So these numbers could change a little.

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John - OH — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:05:34 GMT

Obama still needs big wins like last night to win it all. The Clintons will not cave and will use everything in the power (legal and illegal) to win.

It is time for a real change in America, we have to many major issues i.e. deficit, jobs, education, health care, our standing in the world, global warming,... we need someone who can look at the issues in a different light and bring all together to make a difference. It is time for Obama!!!

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Scott — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:05:35 GMT

The Clinton campaign is learning that we want a President, not a Professor. It's admirable that she's an expert on all the intricacies of arcane policies. But we're not asking her to take a final exam in a college Political Science class. We're looking for a leader to move our country forward.

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Roger M Reno, NV — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:06:49 GMT

Here we go, the usual flip flopping by Democrats. Six months ago Hillary walked on water, now she's worthless. What a bunch of hypocrites you people are.

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cc,caldwell, kansas — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:14:55 GMT

clinton is not really honest with the people. she has a lot of baggage and has a real problem making TRUE statements about obama, her opponent. now obama is as honest as the day is long..he is a breath of fresh air to a very big problem the bush administration has created, i think obama is the ONLY one that can pull the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, up by its boot straps and get is on the right path again with the world and this country.

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bryan, chi — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:21:45 GMT

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bryan, chi — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:21:45 GMT

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Paul Miller, Woodbridge, VA — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:22:29 GMT

Russ - the "invigorated" fundraising is suspect. Campaign officials have said they've raised how much since Super Tuesday? I think the last I heard was $10 million.

But in an earlier post (yesterday), First Read references a couple of Clinton fundraisers who said they are concerned they won't be able to keep up with Obama - because Obama is bringing in about $1 million a day since Super Tuesday and Clinton only about half that much.

Okay, Super Tuesday was eight days ago (counting today). Half of $1 million for 8 days comes to $4 million.

Still impressive, but significantly less than the $10 million that was claimed - and it will be a long time before we see any official campaign finance reports.

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bryan, chi — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:24:30 GMT

roger- i believe republicans said mccain was done for and had no chance 6 months ago. so, you're calling us hypocrites? brillant

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Martin — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:32:00 GMT

The human brain is not fully developed till you're 25 - and most fanatic Obama supporters are under 25, so they should be forgiven. They will get wiser!

Hillary 08!!!

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Martin — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:32:09 GMT

The human brain is not fully developed till you're 25 - and most fanatic Obama supporters are under 25, so they should be forgiven. They will get wiser!

Hillary 08!!!

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Ron Allen — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:32:22 GMT

Discusted and others,
Sorry you thought Obama is flawed. I did not vote to send Bush to the Oval Office. I am a young college educated guy and voted for Obama. The people who voted for Bush are "moral voters" and those who I call hypocrites.
Now, to call Obama flawed and a hyped up candidate only cements your ignorance. What has been happening to your TV, your computer, and your books in that part of the world? Did Hillary's name recognition and her constantly talk of "exprience" make you think she is the ebst candidate? And if you opposed the war that you claim your country is fighting, then you must remember that you are being a total hypocrite because Hillary voted for the war authorization.
So, your argument against Obama being flawed only makes you look ignorant -- did you actually look at his records and did a little fact checking?

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lb/ohio — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:41:45 GMT

Has the Democratic party asked itself about the position it will find itself in with Sen.Obama leading it into a general election. He won't fight Sen. Clinton anymore but the Republican machine of large donors. The fight to end the war in Iraq won't be won with John McCain and the rightist forces which I believe will back him in the end. Sen.Obama is gong to need a Clinton on his side--in short, she should run as his vice-presidential nominee to emphasize experience as well as ideology. I do believe that without a powerful, influential VP nominee--that the Democrats will fail to take the presidency--thus, Obama & Clinton should run together after burying their hachets toward each other--I think would win and shatter history and the Republicans.

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Phred, NH — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:53:49 GMT

With Obama garnering support
Hillary holes up in the fort

The momentum has swung to Barack
Will Hill go on the attack

The voters will deem who's elected
Just like they will who's rejected

And when you add up the delegate count
The Clinton troubles surely do mount

Let the voters determine who'll run in the fall
In November we all have to answer the call

Lets remind the candidates they work for us
It seems they forget its ever been thus

So voters remember when you go to the poll
Its us for whom the bell does toll

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Carol, Long Valley NJ — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 15:54:02 GMT

Discusted (Sent Wednesday, February 13, 2008 9:39 AM)

Just what experience did George W Bush have? The governor of Texas is a figure head, the Lt Governor does most of the work and he failed at every business venture that he ever tried. If it wasn't for daddy and he's connections, he'd be working at McDonalds. Darn you poppa Bush!

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J. Franklin, Denver, CO — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:00:05 GMT

It was interesting to hear Howard Fineman's account of his conversation with the Clinton campaign. They accept that Clinton will not catch Obama in pledged delegates. Their hope is that she can keep the margin within 30-50 delegates, so it will be perceived as “acceptable” for the superdelegates to decide the election and give it to Hillary. They concede that if he’s got it by 100 or more, then it would not be as well received. What happened to the idea that when you recognize that you're not going to catch your opponent, you concede the election and drop out? I think Hillary and Huckabee should should run together as the "against all odds" independent ticket. Neither seems to be intimidated by math.

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BL, Cincinnati, OH — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:04:58 GMT

When will you Clinton supporters realize she doesn't care about you at all? She's using you to get what she wants... power. She'll pander to you till she gets your vote. After that she doesn't care about you at all.

Florida - Michigan: Didn't care about you at all when she thought she could win without you and signed the pledge to not campaign there and agreed to FL/MI getting no delegates. She never bothered to speak up for your voice for the months after the decision was made by the DNC. She only cares about you now that she needs you.

Nevada: Only cared about the Las Vegas voters when she thought she had them in her corner. She was all in favor of the way the caucuses were set up, until after she lost the endorcement, then she wanted to squash their voice and votes.

South Carolina: Did not even care enough to have the respect to stay and thank her local staff and supporters after the vote. John Edwards got stomped in his home state and at least has the decency to stay and thank his people and the other candidates. Instead she took off in the middle of the night to go to the next group of people she needed something from.

Super Tuesday: How many states did she not bother visiting? How many states did she say weren't important and didn't matter? I lost count.

Louisiana/Nebraska: Did not even care enough to go there because she knew she wouldn't win.

Maryland/DC/Virginia: Barely made an effort, and only in Virginia from what I saw. Didn't even bother to thank her people there or the voters last night.

All she cares about is winning at any cost. She'll say or do whatever it takes. Look how many times she's changed her message. She says whatever she thinks you want to hear.

First she refuses to release documents on her so called "experience" during Bill's terms. Now she refuses to release her tax info until after she is nominated. What a joke, yet all you Clinton fans just blindly follow her. Would you buy a house from a sales person that wouldn't let you read the contract until after you signed it and paid for it? Oh, wait, bad example... we are seeing how many stupid people already do that.

She won't win the nomination. The numbers aren't in her favor, and will only get worse. She couldn't win the general even if she some how steals the nomination. It's a fact. You all know it. Yet you still pathetically grasp at straws, trying to change the rules, or spouting of a "right wing conspiracy" where hundreds of analysts, talking heads, and ordinary voters are in some massive effort to vote in Obama, while supposidly using reverse psychology that they'd rather fight Hillary blah blah blah.

Obama's positions are pretty similar to Hillary's as well as to the party positions. With a Democratic congress we'll finally be able to fix things and push the country in the right direction.

But no, you'd rather claim to be petty like J. Merle and would rather see McCain give us multiple new wars, more tax breaks for the rich, conservative judges that could overturn Roe v. Wade, let corporate America run even further unchecked, and basically destroy what little reputation we have left in the world. While getting very little done in Washington as the parties spend more time fighting each other than doing what they should be doing.

J. Merle, you are either one of two things 1) Petty, childish, and a sore loser who would rather compromise your core values than admit to backing a losing candidate (sounds like your candidate and her votes) or 2) is just grasping at straws in a desperate transparent attempt to sway people to Clinton.

Either way, its sad.

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mike — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:06:23 GMT

It is truly frightening to see masses vote for Senator Obama because of his razzle dazzle. People, we are voting for the Presidency. He has run one thing in his life-Harvard Law Review. If he is nominated, the Republican machine will poke holes in the Obama balloon. Hillary's hands are tied. Whatever she says is either called racist or hypercritical. It he is nominated, the gloves will come off in the summer and Obama will sink rapidly.

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melissa — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:07:15 GMT

Obama is flawed hes a man we all have flaws. Like he has one also in his health care plan he to is forcing a mandate to parents. Know I don't know about anybody else but if you can say Cliton health care could garnish your wages then Obama's also could hit the most fragile of this country the middle class. Now I have no prblem supporting my children but do not ever tell me hes great because this shows he is not.

Also giving liciences to illegals how is this good ,
lets see that would make them more at risk. Being documented illegals. KNOCK KNOCK = DEPORTATION great idea.

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Fancy, Indpls, IN — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:09:29 GMT

Hillary is obvious in a lot of trouble. Obama is really doing a great job campaigning. While on the other hand, Hillary is losing her campaign workers, and say that she is skipping the state of WI. She is not in a good situation to skip a state. When she has not had a win for a couple of weeks. I don't think it is wise to only focus on Texas, Ohio, and Penn. Remember Obama will win one or even two of these states. Hillary can't be trusted. She is a liar, and always talking about her 35 years of experience. Just because she lived in the white house for 8 years does not make her more qualified than Obama. Her campaign does not do a good job in organizing. It seems like her campaign is falling apart. This is not a good time for that to be happening. Obama will be a democratic candidate who will excel to become the next president of the United States. He has shown in so many ways that he is ready, and that he will be "Right" on day one. His judgement, intelligence, character, experience in the senator will pay off come November 2008.

Obama 2008

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Tina Massachusetts — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:09:33 GMT

To Disgusted and others
The fact that we are even engaged in this debate publically and passionately highlights what a wonderful process this is. As Americans we look inside ourselves and ask questions and argue about what is best. Both Obama and Clinton have put everything on the line and are willing to stand up and take a chance at leadership. I am so proud of this process. No one else has this process in the same way. We fought for it and died for it over 200 years ago, and we like it just fine thank you. You are welcome to observe our process and comment as you will but please don't just be critical contribute to the conversation. If you could vote, who would you vote for? Or are you saying none of the Republican's or Democrats are worth electing?
I will be voting for a smart, reasoned guy with hope,who will be able to work with leaders of other nations.
Im 46 and see no reason to stop fighting to make our country a better place. Yes we can... Obama 08

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BRIDGET MAYFIELD OHIO — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:09:55 GMT

Hello MSN people I live in Cleveland Ohio and I need to know how I can get tickets to the debate on the 26th.

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hopeful..not — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:26:08 GMT

Just heard Obama going to spend $10M for a credit card company rating system; that will help all his hopefuls know which credit card to choose. He also wants $10B program to assist individuals who purchased homes "too expensive for their income levels." Silly me for buying a home in my price and having paid it off early. But now, hopefuls, I'll be better to help pay for the homes of those who shouldn't have been in them in the first place. Boy, am I hopeful and ready for change! Not.

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John Smith, Texas — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:27:08 GMT

Melissa, I don't think you have been watching the news lately. Obama changed his view on giving illegal immigrant licenses. Get you facts right before you start critizing the next president of the United States.
Obama 2008 - Yes We Can!

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S. Meyer Wharton Texas — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:28:42 GMT

Has the "connections" around Obama in Chicago suddenly disappear? Does history not teach you guys anything? Bush was inexperienced and he and his replacement Perry has screwed Texas over and over again!

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james — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:33:35 GMT

Thanks Msnbc for being so fair. I've watched this democratic contest intensely and i've watched the way all of the cable news networks defend Hillary. Your station is the only one that broadcasted Hillary and Obama's speech at the same time. It's seems as if Cnn and Fox news have become surrogates for the Clinton campaign. Also the only reason Hillary won in New Hampshire is because she cried a few days before. That is the truth. She did the same thing in the days leading up to Super Tuesday and ended up widening her leads in Cali, N.y. Jersey, and Mass. I believe this was intentional, that is why she went from doing rallies in the days leading up to Super Tuesday.to out of the blue doing a town hall meeting where her old school mate made the staement which triggered this"emotional" moment. Had she cried rifght before the potomac primary she would have done alot better. Its a shame news organizations have just blatantly ignored this "emotional" stragedy used by Hillary. Also, had the news networks played the entire "clip" of her staged "emotional" moment in New Hampshire many of those voters who voted for her would have voted for OBama just like the lady who asked her the question did.Do not be surprised if she has another "emotional" moment right before the Texas/Ohio primary. With that being said, Msnbc has done the best job out of all the news networks in regards to being fair.

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Carl, Houston, Texas — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:36:14 GMT

Clearly no matter what comes out of this primary and caucus season, the country is ready for a change. See John McCain's rise from the ashes or the fervor in which the country embraces Barack Obama, the people of this country have wrested control of it from the old establishment and have no intentions of giving it back any time soon. GLORY TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

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concerned — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:36:57 GMT

CC in Caldwell KS: "obama is as honest as the day is long". I have some swampland in AZ for sale if you want to buy it.

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Rick,ky — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:39:13 GMT

J. Merle, you are either one of two things 1) Petty, childish, and a sore loser who would rather compromise your core values than admit to backing a losing candidate (sounds like your candidate and her votes) or 2) is just grasping at straws in a desperate transparent attempt to sway people to Clinton.

Either way, its sad.
BL, Cincinnati, OH (Sent Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:04 AM)

I'll put a $100 on Sore Loser.

BTW, Bill, a very good post.

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Barbara C., Pompano Beach, FL — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:48:07 GMT

The truest language all you guys used over at MSNBC this morning with Scarborough was that in this race, this year, Momentum is Fleeting. This whole Dem side of the contest reminds of those Jai Alai games in Florida when the two players battle it out on points to the end. I don't think this kind of excitement is good for my heart, but I will stay tuned anyway.

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Kily — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:49:13 GMT

I am really worried that we will have Mccain, as I don't believe Obama has the knowledge, experience or plans to succeed. The media has fallen in love with him and are doing him no favors by giving him a pass on the issues and everything else. I think people are voting for him because he is likable, and we all want to hope, but change for the sake of change is not necessarily good. When the republicans start in on his stances, and bring up the anti-white pastor and the land deals and push the security issue, I don't think he will be able to adequately respond. I believe Hillary is our best chance for a democrat. Unfortunately for her, the media does not agree.
I'm sorry he didn't wait 8 years until he had more to offer.

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Ron Allen — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:54:09 GMT

H (Obama) won't fight Clinton anymore... You mean debate anymore for Hillary's advantage? You know he is refusing to debate FIVE times (do you really want a debate that much, and do you think a debate professor makes a good president?) that the Clintons want in order to make up fo their mismanaged and wasted donor money that Clinton could have wisely used on advertisements. She wants FREE advertisement time by debating as if to test her 35 years of honed debating skills.
What a lame argument you have.

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Carrie — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:01:42 GMT

I am a 40 year old Republican. I have never critisized anyones views on their political opinions. I have helped elect three of our last four Presidents. I have never written to any publication or commented on any artical no matter how infuriating and ignorant their statements may have been. To say Republicans (moral voters) are hypocrites is a sad sign of what this country has become. To call anyone a hypocrit without having evidence of so, is terrible. Dont you dare judge me. I am married to the same man for 19 years(imagine that), raise my children, care for my fellow man,woman,child,and animal. We are not all Bible toting fanatics. The Evangelicals are less than 10% of our party.
Obviously I didn't vote for either democrat, but it is nice to see that democrats see the Clintons in their real light and are as sick of them as the rest of the Country. Perhaps if they had been a little MORAL, Mr. Clinton wouldn't be best remembered for his cigars and Mrs. Clinton would'nt be best remembered just sitting idly by plotting her own political path.

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campdog — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:03:21 GMT

discusted - worry about your own country. You don't live here, so you know nothing about obama. who do you think WE should elect. Trust me we don't care what other countries think. we are worried about fixing our country for the betterment of OURselves.

Is this an example of Obama diplomacy....bringing all the people together.... Sounds like the same "go it alone attitude" that got us into Iraq.

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Matt, Miami, FL — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:05:00 GMT

Hey Martin--
Before posting again take a look at the exit polls in VA and MD first.

Obama edged Clinton - 52-47 - among voters over 60 in Virginia and 50-46 in Maryland.

He split white votes about 50-50 with Clinton in both states.

In Virginia, Obama led Clinton 59 to 41 percent among the WOMEN who were polled. He also took 57 percent of the votes of respondents who said they earn less than $50,000 a year and 59 percent of those who said someone in their household is a member of a union.

In Maryland, 59 percent of WOMEN backed Obama, 65 percent of those making less than $50,000 voted for him and 61 percent of those in union households supported him.

He was the winner among respondents who said the economy, the Iraq war or health care -- a trademark issue for Clinton -- was the most important issue to them.

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Francis Wilson — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:06:25 GMT

I am an African American and I am ashamed and disturbed that African-Americans are voting 90% for Obama. Are we doing this based only on his record or does race and gender have something to do with it? What if every race (white vote 90% for white candidates) as blacks do and the latina votes become the difference, what will we say? We'll be the first to claim racism, right? But now that we are the ones doing it against every media's perceived "enemy" Hillary, we think it's okay?
I may be an exception, but I think that Obama is a flash in the pan. The same media that is promoting his appeal we begin to ask, "Where's the beef?" The other thing true Democratic supporters may need to guard against is, are we making it easier for the Republican (John McCain) to win in November? All this talk that Hillary is divisive is being perpetuated by the Republicans who are afraid to run against Hillary. The so called "Obamacans" will disappear in a 'jiffy' and the "independents" will coalesce around McCain who will keep us "safe." Remember that soon, the 9/11 trials will begin and people will be reminded and even be made to re-live the horrors of 9/11. Obama, with no military experience, no foreign policy experience, no domestic policy to point to and in fact, no gravitas to boast of, will be made to look like a light weight.
Why are we Democrats buying the Republicans line that Hillary is "divisive"? She can point to her work in the senate with Linsey Graham, McCain and others as evidence that she can and have worked with the otherside to get this done.
Let us beware of what we are asking for or doing with this election before we throw it away based on emotiinal factors that Obama can and will "bring us together." Please note that our fight in politics are based on philosophical differences not so much about personalities. So, Obama will bring the republicans to accept abortion rights, gun control, corporate tax reform, gay marriage and other rights!
Think Again!

Concerned Democrat, NY

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anti-msnbc — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:09:02 GMT

please does anyone know what was crawling up Matthews leg last night,when obama was speaking?Please mr obama with all the money you are raking in ---quit calling me for more------

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DISGUSTED — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:10:42 GMT

TO ALL YOU PEOPLE THAT THINK OBAMA WILL BE THE NOMINEE AND PRESIDENT.
THE RACE ISSUE IS STILL ALIVE IN THIS COUNTRY.
IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME - LOOK AT THE POLL EXITS AND WHO VOTED FOR OBAMA. 90% BLACKS. THEY ARE VOTING ON STRICTLY RACE AND NOT THE INDIVIDUAL.
WHO IS RAISING THE RACE ISSUE - NOT THE AVERAGE WHITE PERSON WHO DARES TO BRING RACE INTO THE ISSUE.
OBAMA WILL LOOSE TO MCCAIN THIS FALL BECAUSE OF THIS.
WAKE UP AMERICA.
THE NEWS MEDIA WILL NOT RAISE THIS ISSUE BUT IT IS THERE.

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redshift, spokane wa — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:12:13 GMT

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"
Winston Churchill

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raider dem, maryland — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:29:51 GMT

If it wasn't for California she would be out of this. If it wasn't for the Democratic Party's system of voting, she would be virtually non-existant.
Tim, Baltimore, MD
-----------------------------------------------------
Actually, if the Dem's system were winner take all, Hillary would have the lead right now (if my system of awarding delegates on a winner take all basis is correct).

Of all the delegates awarded to date, if they went to the person who (by percentage) won the state, this is the delegate total I get:

Clinton -- 1069
Obama -- 998

Still extremely close, but with the shoe on the other foot, so to speak.

Hey First Read, anyway to verify that info? Who would have the most delegates on the Dem side if it were winner take all, not proportional?

(sorry this is posted on 2 threads, wouldn't go thru before)

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mary Davenport Iowa — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:31:26 GMT

The human brain is not fully developed till you're 25 - and most fanatic Obama supporters are under 25, so they should be forgiven. They will get wiser!

Hillary 08!!!

Martin

Really Dr. Martin, where are your sources, both regarding brain development, and that Obama's most fanatical supporters are under 25! Seems you forgot HRC's talking points last week how she won the under 25 youth vote in California and Mass. Is this because of your own underdeveloped brain, or the underdeveloped brain of those under 25 in California and Mass?

Also what does it say about the fact that with the exception of CA and MA HRC has not won the vote of any age group in any other state under 60, in Iowa it was under 70!

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RENEA,MI — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:34:27 GMT

ALL I HAVE TO SAY TO HILLARY WHAT ABOUT THE LOBBYIST,THE EARMARKS,NAFTA AND THE WAR YOU SUPPORTED? HOW IS THIS FIGHTING FOR THE WORKING CLASS PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY?

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rlh, knoxville, tn — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:49:21 GMT

The democratic process in this great nation is on full display. How fortunate we are to be able to voice our differences and opinions about each canadiate without fear of being decapitated. We have two exceptional canadidates trying to make history and thus lead this country in a new direction. But history has a plan and the man is Obama 08....God Bless America!

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Brendon, San Diego, CA — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:52:44 GMT

To the Democrats reading that no matter what, want a Democrat in the White House and want something to get done once a Democrat is there:

Imagine this: It is Clinton Vs. McCain in the General election: Dems will vote for her. Independents probabally will not. Republicans will come out in droves to vote against her no matter who is on the Republican side.

Lets just say she actually pulls off this hypothetical win: The Republicans in Congress and the Senate will make it their life long work on blocking every Clinton initiative that comes through the House and Senate. On top of this, swing states will fight tooth and nail to get back a Republican Majority...all from disdain for Clinton. I know it is unfortunate, but it is fact.

Healthcare under Clinton is a pipedream. Anything under Clinton is a pipedream. Republicans will block everything she tries to throw at them.

With Obama, anything is possible. The opposition does not hate him, nor does he hate the opposition. He understands he needs Republicans to back him on initiatives if he has any chance of getting things passed. The American people are standing behind Obama, ready for him to take them to new places we havent seen in 40 years. In contrast, The American people will stand in front of Clinton, blocking her at every turn. These are facts. It is unfortunate, but only one Democrat on the ballot has an opportunity to take the country in a new direction. I wish it wasn't so. I respect Clinton, but we would have at least 4 years of Red/Blue war weve been so accustomed to in the past 16 years. I dont even blame her. She's smart, ambitious(in a good way) and wants great things for the country. She just wouldnt be able to deliver. Obama will.

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minco, charleston, SC — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:52:52 GMT

White's will never admit to being racist because doing so would acknowledge that they are flawed. They have a sickness a human failing that would make them afraid. They are also always worried about payback! Imagine thousands of white families packing lunch, bringing their children and enjoying themselves while they Hang, Shoot, and Burn a Black Man. White folks ya'll are SICK! Face it! Hitler was Caucasion, there is a lust within you for this kind of behavior that you must confront not us forgive forever your shortcomings until you do your future is one that will fail unless you change. So get over yourself and join the Human Race. We understand, you just need to admit it to yourselves we will help you with your disease.

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nuanced — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 17:57:56 GMT

jaycee, thanks for the ride on the wayback machine with Bob Dylan's "My Back Pages." That was my favorite Dylan song. Here is another stanza.

Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
"Rip down all hate," I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow.
Ah, but I was so much older then,
I'm younger than that now.

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ChangeinNC,Charlotte,NC — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:01:17 GMT

Francis Wilson

Let us beware of what we are asking for or doing with this election before we throw it away based on emotiinal factors that Obama can and will "bring us together." Please note that our fight in politics are based on philosophical differences not so much about personalities. So, Obama will bring the republicans to accept abortion rights, gun control, corporate tax reform, gay marriage and other rights!
Think Again!

Think Again Hilary & McCain have the same odds accomplishing this as Obama. I am a conservative white male over 50 from New York and will be voting for Obama. I even registered from republican to independent to vote for him in the NC primaries. The role of president is akin to a general contractor, your only as good as the plumber, electrician & carpenter. Your only job is to pick the right ones and get them to work together to build something. Obama checked his ego at the door and can put the right team together to build something for America. McCain & Hillary are only in it for themselves their words and body language tell the whole story.

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Martha, Tobyhanna PA — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:11:13 GMT

Looks like Obama's getting alot of Republican votes and it's all going according to (their) plan. If Obama end up being the Dem nominee, the Republicans will wipe up the floor with him and he'll never again be able to run for President with the same untarnished rock-star cult following he has today. McCain will be a one-tern President and Hillary Clinton will run again for President and win.

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Phred, NH — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:16:45 GMT

When posting, please ensure your spelling is correct. It also does noone any good to call out fellow posters names or mock their intelligence. This should be a free exchange of ideas, thoughts, and comments. Remember we're all in this together, please behave accordingly.

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BL, Cincinnati OH — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:24:35 GMT

Actually, if the Dem's system were winner take all, Hillary would have the lead right now (if my system of awarding delegates on a winner take all basis is correct).

Of all the delegates awarded to date, if they went to the person who (by percentage) won the state, this is the delegate total I get:

Clinton -- 1069
Obama -- 998

Still extremely close, but with the shoe on the other foot, so to speak.

Hey First Read, anyway to verify that info? Who would have the most delegates on the Dem side if it were winner take all, not proportional?

(sorry this is posted on 2 threads, wouldn't go thru before)
raider dem, maryland (Sent Wednesday, February 13, 2008 12:29 PM)

____________

Your math is off. It would be:

Obama - 1096
Clinton - 1049

Obama -
Alabama: 52
Alaska: 13
Colorado: 55
Connecticut: 48
Delaware: 15
District of Columbia: 15
Georgia: 87
Idaho: 18
Illinois: 153
Iowa: 45
Kansas: 32
Louisiana: 56
Maine: 24
Maryland: 70
Minnesota: 72
Missouri: 72
Nebraska: 24
North Dakota: 13
South Carolina: 45
Utah: 23
Virginia: 83
Washington: 78
US Virgin Islands: 3
Total: 1096

Clinton -
Arizona: 56
Arkansas: 35
California: 370
Massachusetts: 93
Nevada: 25
New Hampshire: 22
New Jersey: 107
New York: 232
Oklahoma: 38
Tennessee: 68
American Samoa: 3
Total: 1049

New Mexico's 26 is still undecided last I heard. So even if she gets those, she'd still be behind in Pledged Delegates. But, its a mute point, as that's not how the system works and you can't change the rules mid way through.

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J. Ed, New Mexico — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:24:45 GMT

"..beware of what we are asking for or doing with this election before we throw it away based on emotiinal factors that Obama can and will "bring us together."
Concerned Democrat, NY
Francis Wilson

I caution you to be a spokesperson for african-americans, to say that Obama is a Flash in the pan is so disingenuous. The rhetoric being bantered about reminds many of us again of the election cycles of the past. Spread doubt, fear and uncertainty and divide minorities, because only the same group of people who have lead this country for 232 years can determine what is best for EVERYONE.
The word is OUT people want change, experience is what exists in the senate and congress and has it made a difference?

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AJ, Seattle — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:28:19 GMT

BL, Cincinnati, OH (Sent Wednesday, February 13, 2008 11:04 AM)

Very well said! Also check out the Op Ed in the NY Times, this woman is disgusting.

Before buying into the 'no experience' claims against Barack check it out on his website for yourself. He has nothing to hide.

Barack, whether you admit it or not, is what we need. And it has nothing to do with his speeches, absolutely nothing.

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Kim, Pasadena, CA — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 18:31:46 GMT

To those who so ardently (and often vitriolically) support Senator Clinton: the claim that Senator Obama has not "run" anything is an extremely weak argument.

And this is why, what has Senator Clinton ever run? Apparently, in making this argument you discount running a Senatorial office or a national campaign, so what does that leave that Senator Clinton has run as an executive? She didn't even run the Yale Law Review.

Senator Obama has more legislative experience than Senator Clinton. Being a First Lady does count as something, but not as "running" something; running the executive branch of our government was of course President Bill Clinton's job.

As for how they manage, well, objective evidence points to Senator Obama as the better on that score --Senator Obama certainly has handled his campaign better by managing the money correctly, planning properly, and organizing his grassroots support.

Senator Clinton has many fine qualities. I suggest those of you who support her do some research, find out what those qualities are and argue those rather than making these specious arguments. You might find your arguments are more effective when they are honest. You might also find that Senator Obama's call to a new kind of politics is attractive-- when you are positive you feel so much better than you do rolling around in the muck.

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raider dem, maryland — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 19:31:18 GMT

New Mexico's 26 is still undecided last I heard. So even if she gets those, she'd still be behind in Pledged Delegates. But, its a mute point, as that's not how the system works and you can't change the rules mid way through.
BL, Cincinnati OH
-----------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your input BL. According to your numbers and mine, we had very different counts for CO and MD (though I mistakenly did not include American Samoa or the Virgin Islands).

My overall point was in response to the comment that IF the Dem system were winner take all, that Hillary would be getting pulvarized right now, that she wouldn't be relevant. Clearly, not the case.

Any way you slice it, its still close.
Not trying to change the rules, just trying to make a point.

Thanks for the feedback.

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Jason, Cambridge MA — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:07:17 GMT

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Tracy Potter, Bismarck, North Dakota — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:09:10 GMT

Dear Disgusted - I'm pretty sure that Obama carried 90% of the African-American vote in North Dakota, too. That would explain his 62% here, and his 67% next door in Minnesota, and his 67% in Nebraska and Maine, and everywhere. He's the only national candidate we have. The racists you worry about aren't Democrats anyway.

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raider dem, maryland — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:17:43 GMT

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S. Duckham, Springfield, Virgina. — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:28:32 GMT

Perhaps the most frustrating thing to me about Senator Clinton is that I have to ask, where was she 4 years ago? She touts 35 years of experience as the primary (sole?) reason she should be selected. Would 31 years of experience not have been enough? Or is it pure political calculation that she did not want to run against a sitting president because it was a more difficult road to election. Did she chose to leave us more vulnerable 4 years ago, for her own political gain? Would she not have been the better candidate than Senator Kerry and given us a better chance to win back the presidency from Bush where the past 3 disasterous years could have been avoided? Senator Obama understands the urgency of now. Senator Clinton has shown that she does not. I was proud to be able to vote for Senator Obama yesterday in the Virginia primary.

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Lilly, San Francisco, CA — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 20:42:44 GMT

Obama the only hope for DEM's? A serious underestimation of the republicans. He will be swiftboated. Those claims of racism, every time his record gets citicized, only works on democratic sensibilities. He has momentum on his side but a growing number of independents, centrists and undecideds are getting very nervous about the cult of personality. They will vote McCain.

In addition there will be many Clinton supporters who are offended and disenfranchised by the obvious betrayal/abandonement of the Clintons. If democrats start participating in the sport of "Clinton hunting" we just help setting up Obama to be the next target: and he does not have the the experience in fighting mudslingers that the Clintons do. If you think that he is immune from the bullying and "character assination by propaganda" you don't understand republicams.

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sad about racists — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:11:34 GMT

to the post by Minco at 12:52 p.m. You can say things in pretty words and pose them as concern for others if you like. However, your post is just as racist as you accuse others of being. And, please, don't lump all white people into one group and call them racist. I happen to love my bi-racial grandson with ALL MY HEART; I would die for him. Add to that I love his bi-racial father like he is my own son; I wouldn't have picked anybody different for my daughter. You see the problem? When people start stereotyping groups (all whites, all blacks, all Hispanics, etc)rather than looking at individuals, they hurt and offend folks. I will accept your apology for calling me a racist. You couldn't be further from the truth. If there were a voter concerned about Obama's race, you did not nothing to persuade them they're wrong.

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James, Georgia — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:23:07 GMT

Why is it that the Media refuses to mention the oppressed 2million+ voters from Michigan and Florida, both of whom went overwhelmingly for Clinton. If this issue is not resolved, and these delegates are not given to Clinton, we will be repeating 2000 all over again. Sorry, but Obama can not win, and should not win, given this scenario. It is so sad to see the Right Wing Press giving Obama the pass, hoping that he will be crushed by McCain. It is also so sad to see the more than 2million people being denied their vote.

Jason, Cambridge MA

I don't know Jason? Maybe it's because all Democratic candidates pledged not to campaign in Michigan or Florida, because both states violated DNC calendar rules that their own DNC delegates agreed to, knowing the penalty would be a loss of delegates. If Michigan and Florida voters are upset that a select few of their citizen's won't get to attend the convention in Denver, they should be mad at their own representatives, either the ones to the DNC convention that agreed to the calendar, and the penalty (no delegates- a contest that doesn't count), or their elected leaders (surprise Hillary supporters trying to "help Hillary") who scheduled their primaries in violation of the calendar with full knowledge of the result. The joke is on Michigan and Florida's elected leaders they violated the calendar to be relevant, instead all Democrats pledged not to campaign there and agreed the votes won't count, and they wouldn't try to seat them. So before Iowa and NH the candidates did ignore Michigan, and they continued to ignore Florida after Nevada, but after Clinton was crushed in South Carolina she went to Florida for her victory speech (how pathetic), and has since been trying to get Florida and Michigan to count. What a joke! If Florida and Michigan had played by the rules and either scheduled primaries 2/5 or any day in February after 2/5, they would receive the attention they so craved. Also, you seem to forget that 40% of those who turned out to vote in the Michigan primary voted for "other", more than 50% of Michigan's male Democrats didn't vote for Clinton despite the fact only she and Dodd had failed to ask that their names be removed from the ballot. If Florida had not had an important tax/education issue on the ballot, how many Floridians would have shown up to vote when they knew there was no contest?

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jabok, Dallas,Tx — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 21:29:19 GMT

I may be one of the few, but I thought for months that MSNBC pundits were all hyping Obama, because
he is something new. I could not help but laugh
at all of them when they realized Hillary was actually winning in New Hampshire. Are the blacks
racist for voting 90% for Obama, at least the white
people are splitting it and may be giving more thought to the process than blacks. Only time will
tell who will win, as for me I can take either one
as the nominee.

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Mary, Damascus, MD — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:00:10 GMT

Senator Clinton is highly intelligent, has hands-on experience regarding all the major issues, and will get the job done; unlike Obama, who states he will rely on others where he is less knowledgeable or experienced (that covers a lot of territory). The media (MSNBC???) "reports" on the Obama party train, as opposed to the candidates' stances on the issues and what each will do if elected. The media is not to hype any one candidate, but to report and educate, giving people the tools they need to make intelligent decisions based on the issues. It is unconscionable, not to mention irresponsible, for any news medium to tout one candidate over another. Yes, some people are easily led; however, it is irresponsible, prior to voting, to psyche them into some rah-rah, feel-good movement, which does nothing but satiate and placate a citizenry hungry for hope and a new administration. As an American I see my country dividing into many camps. I do not understand why women and men are not ready to vote for a highly qualified, powerful, and dynamic woman. Women have led in other countries for centuries. Why do we fear this leadership by women? Experience is an absolute necessity in order for change to take hold in an organized, linear manner, and a must when working within the structures of diplomacy on a global level. It is imperative the next president be ready to take the helm immediately; we cannot play catch-up, nor will we have time for Obama's "learning curve." Not only has Senator Clinton worked for the better health and education of all children since graduating law school, but she presented universal health care many years ago (remember?), only to be stopped by a multitude of adversaries on every side, in particular, every Republican in office, doctors, special interest groups, and big insurance companies.

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Neenah Fox, Detroit, Michigan — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:03:27 GMT

Francis Wilson,

You obviously don't remember when the Rev's Jackson and Sharpton ran for the presidency. Black people didn't vote for them in large numbers. Why? Because they were not that qualified for the position although they did some good things.

Black people are voting for Barack because he is the most qualified candidate that happens to be half black. Stop using the race card because it doesn't fit here and give black people more credit than that.

And what about when Bill Clinton was getting 90% of the black vote, nobody was saying anything then, so just stop it with the "because he's black" because it's not the reason why black people are supporting him.

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CitizenJ — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:43:26 GMT

I'm no expert delegate counter, but it seems to me that it is a bad idea to spit in the face of the 15 "insignificant" states yet to vote. Here is my admittedly rudimentary delegate math:

Current pleged delegates:
Obama 1078
Clinton 969

Assuming Clinton wins 55% of the 577 delegates in Texas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, that would give her 317 delegates, and Obama would get 260.

Then, assume there is a backlash in the remaining states because Clinton thinks they are insignificant. We'll say Obama wins 55% of those 735 delegates. That would give him 404 delegates and Clinton would get 331.

At the end of the day, here would be the final pleged delegate count:
Obama 1742
Clinton 1617

If Clinton is counting on Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania, she will have to have the superdelegates to win. I really doubt they will go against a margin of over 100 pleged delegates.

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Bob — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:53:55 GMT

One of the more amusing factoids about last night's events was that when Hillary was giving her stump speech (boooring) in El Paso, a young man sitting right in front of her (but partially obscured by an Anmerican flag on the stage) was wearing an OBMAMA T-shirt. Chuck Todd: review the video -- it's pretty funny, and she couldn't have missed it; he was probably in the second row.

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Mike, Tracy, Ca — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 05:27:49 GMT

I grow tired of reading all these messages but I read on beacause even though it may seem that we are all different in some way we are all much alike! We are, as a people, the United States Of America! We as a people dictate to the world how strong and united we are! American people band together when we are confronted face to face by the enemy, after 9/11 we were united as a country for quite some time. I feel as if we are angry at ourselves so much we need to blame some one else. 9/11 has worked and it is showing through at this very moment in our country. Unfortunately people died on 9/11 but what else has happened is that we are so afraid now of another attack by the enemy on our own soil we have changed the way we live! Our economy took a hit so we had to jump start it! The Big 3 in detroit lowered interest rates, sales went up and people grew dependant on low interest rates. While the focus was on low interest rates the housing industry spiked and we as a country started to get hungry for more money so what do we do we bent the rules or did not disclose a few things and clients purchased homes they could not afford. We became addicted to low interest rates and what happens we de-valued vehicles homes and finally the dollar. Now the terrorist have us right where they want us! Now get this, as a country we are in debt up to our eyebrows, we are fighting a war that doesn't make sense in another country. Our military forces are spread thin! The analyst say we are close to a recession if not already there so what do we do, we borrow money for a stimulis plan that will not work only put us in deeper debt! Then top that with an election that divides us even more as a country. Our country is like a bomb ready to go off! One terrorist incident and we could be put over the top. We are very vulnerable right now for any attack! So what do we do? We start bringing our troops home, unfortunately we may have to leave some behind to continue to help the iraqi people. We started it now we have to finish it. We save some money but not having a full force over in iraq. We cannot wait for the next president to be elected it could prove to be to late. We as americans cannot give in to this economic stimulis package, send your checks back to the federal government and say thanks but no thanks.We tell them to save the money to start to pay off our debt. Now this is where it gets tricky, we as americans all americans have to start being more giving if Mr. Obama can raise millions in just a few short months then why wouldn't we be able to donate to ourselves to our childrens future and beyond! Give back to your country remember JFK! I am ready to give back to my country in the form of money if it will help us believe in us as a country again! For all you people who say this will not work you are the people who will try to make money off this movement we do not need you. If you had a chance to give a few dollars back to our failed government and we actually had some people we could trust to handle all the money why wouldn't you. If you do not have money some blood sweat and tears will work. No persons over 65 unless you want to, you have given enough to this country now it's time we give back to you! So let's begin! I can only imagine what it would be like to walk side by side with my fellow Americans to rebuild this Great United States of ours! So today we take back what is our's tomorrow the world watches and we become respected again! Then we learn from our mistakes! For the people, by the people!

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Art- Pennsylvania — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 07:51:43 GMT

BAD Move HILLARY! You are preparing to solicit the Hispanic vote in Texas. Yet, you fire(or get rid of) your Hispanic Campaign Manager just before you get there. What's up with that! Now, we all know that thing are not going well in your campaign, and you are on the verge of losing your possible "Super Delagate" supporters. So, you had to unload some of your "expendable" staffers. Really,I don't think the Hispanic voters in Texas (or any place else) are so stupid as to believe that She left because of being lonely for her family. She was probably lonely for her family the first day on the Job but she committed her time to you. And her family was probably proud for her to be the first to hold such a position. People just don't drop a honored position such as "Campaign Manager" on a whim -- admit it -- She served your perpose and you no longer need her. "SLAM BAM THANK-YA MAAAAM!"