http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx NBC’s Ken Strickland reports that Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid has decided to postpone any Iraq debate for a couple of weeks. On the one hand, Reid suggested that had the debate started this week, Iraq resolutions would have been attached to aen-USCommunityServer 2.0 (Build: 60608.1)http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#73796Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:28:19 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:73796jtbNo vote on Iraq? With the Dems in control of Congress?? Oh, brother, the left loon blogs are going to stroke out. notify the E.R.shttp://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#73855Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:01:51 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:73855You are going to feel a little sick. RoanokeAll E.R.s are now closed to all especially verklept leftists. Reason? Vulnerability to the ambulance chaser Edwards and his faux malpractice suits solely intended to enrich himself. What goes around, comes around. Justice is served.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#73917Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:32:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:73917jtbWhat? the left is AGAINST malpractice reform? They are against easy access to health care? Theey are FOR closing down, or severely curtailing the access to Hospitals by the poor and indigent, just so their huge contributors (ATLA) can continue to collect huge malpractice settlements from doctors, E.R.'s, and Hospitals?? Say it isn't so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Merciful heavens: someone call Senator Durbin from Illinois to right this terrible wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#73937Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:40:11 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:73937Not a LibThis is what the lefty's wanted when they voted for the Democraps'. I think not. The far left is going to loose their minds I wonder if they'll have another "violent peace" rally to protest. So basically the Democraps' are going to do nothing which is the same thing they've been doing all along. Hey at least they're consistant. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#73968Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:03:13 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:73968Steve Turner Cedar Falls IowaI see they've sent in the 'Clowns'.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#73987Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:11:37 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:73987Carrie, NW IowaNot a Lib - What exactly did the Republicans (notice the absence of an apostrophe - it does not belong at the end of a pronoun unless you are denoting possession) do regarding the situation in Iraq while they were in charge, other than rubber-stamping all Bush policies and proposals? http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74003Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:17:52 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74003No a LibSteve Turner You got that right Steve when we voted the Democraps' back into power we did just that we sent in the 'clowns'. Couldn't have said it better myself. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74008Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:21:04 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74008jtb"your lack of faith is disturbing"http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74010Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:21:58 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74010Not a LibCBS doesn't have an agenda. Out of the hundreds of thousands of active duty and reserve soldiers they run a story on 1,600 who question the war. I guess next week they'll run a story on the hundreds of thousands who support it. Because they don't have an agenda. LOL!http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74043Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:37:56 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74043Olivia9/11 and 8/29 (when Hurricane Katrina hit) are when the two biggest tragedies to hit this nation since the beginning of this century happened. Neither should be forgotten. Since there was a 9/11 Commission, why can't there be an 8/29 Commission--which I understand that prior to the current Congress' coming into office, some Democrats had been considering calling for? It is grossly unfair that after Joe Lieberman as head of the Senate Homeland Security Committee decided that what happened during Katrina is "not important" and thus denied the Katrina holocaust, the idea seems to have been put on the back burner because I've heard hardly anything about it since then. I even recently read that Nancy Pelosi is now cool to the idea. Obviously these stupid, disgusting politicians for whom Bush Administration Katrina response came in handy last year when they were running for office do not really care about seeing that those who lost everything to Katrina have the answers they have a right to receive. A double standard and possible discrimination seem to be going on here. There is an obvious bias out of "patriotism" in favor for standing up for 9/11 survivors while it doesn't seem to matter if what happened during Katrina is swept under the rug. Katrina survivors have as much of a right to answers as do the survivors of 9/11. It's time members of Congress respected this right and set up an 8/29 Commission. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74055Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:43:54 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74055Darren Pope, SCDid anyone really expect the Dems would actually do anything they promised in regards to the war in Iraq??? Are you kidding me??? You really did??? LOL! Oh boy, you guys are more naive than I thought. By the way, Republican is a noun, not a pronoun, you might want to forgo the English lessons in the future.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74076Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:52:46 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74076MMAt some point you will realize that you have put your "faith" into a corrupt administration. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74081Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:54:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74081r in calif Hey "not a lib"..you are right .. the democrats will not do anything (they dont have to) except watch the right wing idiots continue to dig their own grave. All the Dems have to do is watch Iraq continue to spiral out of control and continue to read about more americans killed in Iraq and they will have huge gains in Nov 08. I suggest you continue to watch FakeNews for all of your right wing "stay the course" BS..... http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74087Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:57:02 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74087Illinois resident. Tornado survivor, and Eathquake preparer.Olivia, there is a town in Illinois that has yet to fully recover from the Tornado disaster of 1925. Businesses were destroyed, people were killed, and the town was never the same again. Some natural disaster aftermaths never return to normal, no matter how much wishing for the opposite occurs. My gut is the same will be true of New Orleanshttp://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74114Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:09:42 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74114Ravine ForceIt is amazing how we could all spin so well. In order for Democrats to be able to pass anything, they will require to have 60 votes in the Senate. Remember the word fillibuster? Republicans are not allowing any bills that would require the least bit of supervision into the Iraq War. Yet, you are spinning it to mean the Democrats have no desire to do so? http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74117Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:10:48 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74117Steve Turner Cedar Falls IowaI guess I'll jus'hafta break it down...for ya. I am, in my mind anyway, a Pure Independent. As a kid, I liked two Politicians, Goldwater and Kennedy. When I got back from Vietnam, I had formulated this simple dogma, "All Politicians are Scum." (with apologies to actual scum). Right Wingers think they are the most humerous, brave, and ironic things, with all the answers, which they are not. It's all 'Death Threats' with them, incoming and outgoing. The Left Wingers are all smug and assured of their balanced late-arriving zingers that turn out, in most instances, to be overthought and edited of the actual endearing things, and most practical ideas. This is due to 'Death Threats' also incoming and outgoing, of their own, jousting with the zingers for spots in the brain. In both instances, they use only the outermost parts of their brains, a little semicircle around the ear, left or right. This allows them to hear only what they want. Some can even speak out their ear, as well as other exits. When a group of either appears in the political spotlight, I call them 'Clowns'. I'm a high-wire act, so I see the whole Circus. That's what Independent Status can do for you. So, all you Lefties and Righties, when you're in This Circus, wear some raingear.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74160Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:32:33 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74160Hrothgar, Oakland CANot a lib - I just googled a Military Times poll back in December that showed that only a third of active duty military supported Bush's handling of the war...42% disapproved. Only 41% believed we should have gone to war in Iraq in the first place. This is more telling considering only 16% of respondents called themselves Democrats, 46% Repbulicans (down from 60% in previous polls), and 10% as liberal. ROTC programs are leaving northern urban areas, and 40% of US officers are from the south (per Pentagon stat's pub'ed in the WSJ). In other words, the military tends to be dominated by those who align more towards the right instead of the left, ie the mix of politics in the military does not reflect the national mix. That said, for the plurality of support/non-support to occur in the military, it definitely means a shift towards the middle...from the right. Everyone has an agenda, however, it seems interviewing those 1600 is not so damning as you imply based on current views of active duty military.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74193Wed, 28 Feb 2007 17:46:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74193Al, Burlington, KSMicromanage, hurting moral, defund the troops...I'm so sick of the rhetoric, I could scream. Meanwhile our troops are dying and being wounded in droves. From Bob Woodruff's special last night, I learned that the number of wound might be 10 times higher than the Pentagon reports...not surprising. Get off your duffs, Congress, and end the war. Cut off the funds...demand a pull out...micromanage...pass BINDING resolutions...revoke the original war authorization. Ignore the rhetoric and do what you were elected to do. Do it now, before another soldier dies.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74247Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:08:33 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74247Not a LibSteve, "All Politicians are Scum." (with apologies to actual scum). I truly agree with that statement. However, when looking at the lesser of two evils (which unfortunatly is the state American politics are in) I have to vote for the party I feel aligns itself with my views. While it's usually Republican that's not always the case. In fact it sickens me that we have all of these self serving idiots Republicant's and Democraps' alike running our country. The problem with the (mainly lefties) majority of those who post here is they actually believe their party the Democraps' actually care and will fullfill their promises. So instead of this being a situation where we can start calling out all of our politicians regardless of our views we end up slinging insults back and forth. It's a vicious cycle and the politicians on both sides of the isle have us all of us the American people right where they want them. I do notice that the right media seems to call out there own much more than the left media which is another reason I tend to support the right. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74262Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:15:57 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74262Not a LibHrothgar Oakland. You missed the point entirly. There is an obvious agenda if there wasn't they would have had 1,600 Soldiers that support the war plus the 1,600 that oppossed it at the same time and let the viewers decide based on what they take away from it. Or would that be to fair and balanced? http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74281Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:26:04 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74281Mel, IllinoisAn army buddy said two years ago anyone in his unit expressing opposition or even doubts about the war was treated with derision if not bodily harm. Now expressions of non-support are followed by most of the heads in the room nodding in silent agreement. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74288Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:28:45 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74288!!!!!!???????!!!!!!!! adds nothingjtb- just ant you to know that your hateful raving becomes irresistably compeling when you punctuate!!!!!!!!!! Why don't you do this all the time?????????? It becaomes so reasoned and compelkling when you do!!!!!!!!!!!!!http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74295Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:31:57 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74295jtbSteve: for one instant do you think WWII was free of mistakes, misjudgement, miscalculations, and misguided assessments by our government and President then, of the enemy and their adaptability? That War was frought with mistakes and miscalculations, some of which cost thousands of American and our Allies lives, as well as the thousands of collateral civilian casualties, on both sides. But not ONCE did you here a complaint or treasonous call for full scale retreat or surrender, as we are now hearing about Iraq? And yeah, if someone polled the G.I's fighting in WWII, if they really wanted to be over their fighting and dying, you'd probably have gotten 100% against being there. But ya never heard a PEEP from them. BECAUSE THEY KNEW WHAT WAS AT STAKE: THE FREEDOM OF AMERICA AND THEIR CHILDREN. Like WWII, there are absolutes in this war: almost three THOUSAND Americans absolutly lost their lives on 9/11. And we are ABSOLUTELY are in a global war against Islamofascists. Yeah, today, big mistakes were made: just like the Pearl Harbor defense blunder, The Battle of the Bulge miscalculation of the German resistance blunder,, Bull Halsey's Naval blunder in the Pacific,...shall I go on? History is repeating itself, my friend: what side are you on? http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74368Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:02:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74368JIrby, Colorado SpringsI think the reason the Democrats are having a rough time getting all their people on the same page is that the '06 election created a lot of politicians without a home. They damn sure didn't want under the Republican tent because they had seen enough, but they don't make good Democrats either, so the Dem party just acted as a homeless shelter to these people. If you want to play, you have to be one or the other. I think this explains the existence of Blue Dog Dems. When you have a bunch of strays in the herd, it's hard to keep them rounded up sometimes. But I think Republicans on this blog who are delighting in this little problem are going to end up going to their room without any supper. It is only going to get worse for them in '08. If you're a working class Repub, (no, not an oxymoron), you are only going to become less and less relevant in this world you never made. You are going to be the Catcher in the Rye indeedy. Within the next ten or fifteen years, the working class Repub will be the freak without a freak show.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74392Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:09:22 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74392Darren Pope, SCSteve in Cedar Falls, I knew that sooner or later we would agree on something. For all the accusations of being a right-winger I get here, I can assure you all that those words more closely echo my feelings about our government than any I have seen here. I do tend to lean a little more right than left, and I suppose my support of the Iraq war sometimes leads people to believe that I'm a Republican through and through. Not so fast my friends. Registered independednt here. We need a strong 3rd party movement now or we won't have this nation to kick around much longer.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74449Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:26:00 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74449blacksheep, Pope County, Ar.It is amusing that after the Democrats are restored to power by a very slim majority in the senate, that the neo-cons that have abducted the Republican party now scream that the Democrats are unable to accomplish anything good for the nation. Do they really think that most people realize it is only because the neo-cons continue to block any effort by them to correct the course in Iraq? These folks are playing political games that will ultimately come back to haunt them in the next election! Too bad they have decided to do what they think will win them favor with the administration, and not what would be best for the citizens of this nation! This opinion is from a registered Republican (non neo-con) that feels that it is time for these folks to form their own party and give the Republican party back to those of us that do not hate this nation, and want what is best for it!http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74451Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:26:14 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74451Mark ThiemeSteve Turner's 12:10 post goes a long way in describing the shallow coinage and usage of meaningless terms (right/left, etc)in order that we may close our ears to others. Thus, boards like this do fill up rather quickly with good folks shouting past each other. Venting, as it were. Not that there is anything wrong with that. This having been said, if Democrats are selling moral superiority and competence in governance as their products du jour, they are failing, to say the least. Perhaps, historically, Democrats have as much or more blood on their hands and squat on their shoes as anyone. Enough with the pathetic sweetness and light routine. No sale. Nonetheless, if being "Independent" means sitting this one out, high-wire or no, count me as something other than any of the labels we use so freely here. It is incumbent, it seems to me, on every patriotic American to call out this administration. This is not about surge or withdrawal (lovely images, eh?), rather this is about the flim-flam artists in the West Wing who have dealt our nation a weak hand which will reverberate through generations to come. It is about the destruction of our military and the outrageous disregard with which we treat our veterans. It is about the moral courage it takes for conservatives and liberals to roll up our sleeves and take on the greatest Habitat for Humanity project ever conceived in this nation, to bring this intentionally, cynically, divided house of ours back together. It is time for patriots to get beyond labels and stand up for America. We are not as bad as our worst administrations and we are not as good as our illusions of grandeur. May God bless us anyway. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74504Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:39:25 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74504M.E., Albany, Ga.Hrothgar- The Dec poll in Military Times. I remember those poll figures being released, and have wondered how often they conduct them. If conducted again "this" week, do ya think they'd still release the figures if consistent with the Dec poll? With the "shift towards the middle...from the right", I seriously doubt it. They probably "don't ask" so they "don't" have to "tell". This phrase could take on a whole new meaning. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74543Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:52:26 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74543M.E., Albany, Ga.Mark-You always have my ear. I keep repeating..don't ask me what "brand" I am. Don't label me. Just give me somebody I can believe in. Don't insult my intelligence by throwing me a bone and lying to me. Don't throw good money after bad. Admit your mistakes and move on to a better solution. I am after all a forgiving soul, but "You wouldn't like me when I'm Mad".(The Hulk)http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74547Wed, 28 Feb 2007 19:54:35 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74547Steve Turner Cedar Falls IowaMark. Inde don't mean sittin' nuttin' out. When your above the divided crowd, you get to 'rain' wherever it's needed. I've been on the Repubs since they attained unlimited control. But now I can get on the Demos more. No one represents me at the moment, and though it is good that I don't have to back a true Independents' policy package, I'm saddened there are no Great Politicians in this time. We The People had truly brave visionary leaders when this Nation was founded. Now we have all sorts of Human Poodles in the Nation's Capitol. I suppose it started going downhil in 1777. "230 Years...and still slidin'."http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74570Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:02:07 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74570jtbDear 'adds nothing": got your attention, didn't it?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74613Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:17:43 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74613Hrothgar, Oakland CANot a lib - I got your point about agendas...everyone has one. What sent me to google was "Out of the hundreds of thousands of active duty and reserve soldiers they run a story on 1,600 who question the war." It sounded reasonable, but I wondered if the conventional wisdom is true: is support overwhelming for the war amongst active duty military? If so, then I agree interviewing a very vocal minority without getting views of the majority is not fair and balanced. 42% is not an insignificant minority, so the alleged bias is not as bad as if it were, say, 10%.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74630Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:21:54 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74630Ray Eversole, Baton Rouge, LAPlease provide Olivia a ride back to the clinic for free therapy at the public's expense for that obsessive-compulsive disorder better known as linking all the world's socio-political-economic-cultural happenings to...........yikes, what else? NEW ORLEANShttp://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74655Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:30:17 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74655Carrie, NW IowaJtb - To compare Iraq to WWII is laughable. Millions of men fought in WWII...and millions of men died. It was a WORLD war. And, as it happens, it was a war fought against nations that actually attacked other nations. Apples and oranges doesn't even begin to cover it.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74667Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:34:09 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74667Hrothgar, Oakland CASpeaking of "Dont' ask/Don't tell" I just saw a hyperlink of that name that took me to this: www.armytimes.com/news/2007/02/TNSreedinspect070227/...an Army Times article about some of the Walter Reed fallout.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74676Wed, 28 Feb 2007 20:35:18 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74676Gary Schear Bozeman MontanaOne more time. The military's opinion of the war doesn't mean a god damned thing. They execute the directives of the civilian authority. We do not stay in conflicts because the military wants to. The Civilian authority executes strategy, or in W's case strategery, in pursuit of foreign policy that is supposed to benefit the United States. As we watch Afghanistan deteriorate, Iraq convulse, and the administration makes it's case for a third front in Iran, we get daily confirmation of the lunacy that is running and ruining our country. No matter how anyone tries to make this a Democratic problem, history will give this one to it's rightful owner. GW Bush. He would love it if the Democrats shut off funding. It would let him off the hook. It is shameful that this "man" will not take responsibility for his incompetence. I wish him a the earliest plane ride home possible.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74773Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:06:32 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74773DesmondSeveral years ago, post 9/11, pre-Iraq, a minister I know said this, "there is no civility left in government." I often think about what he said because I read and hear and see it every day. After the 2000 election, I was talking to a relative of mine. They had voted for Bush and I had voted for Gore. I told them that I felt there were no winners in that election. We, the voting public had all come out loosers. They agreed. Since then, I have seen less and less of that civility from our politicans and to each other. The amount of rhetoric we are able to throw at each other is astounding. I have no idea why we are aleady having campaings for the next President, two years ahead of the actual election. As far as I can see, there will be two people left standing. They will both be the two who have money on their side. By the time a primary reaches my State, I am sure the people I would want to vote for will be left in the dust. I will be left with my second, or third, or fourth choice.I have always voted in all local and State and Federal elections where I was eligible to vote. So I know I will vote. I just wonder how many of us will be voting not for the candidate we want but for the candidate we have. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74790Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:10:56 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74790Steve Turner Cedar Falls Iowajtb. I have one uncle I love dearly, who as a 17 fresh swab, got blown off the deck of the Arizona. Another uncle, one I never knew, was shot by the Nazis, somewhere in France. I'm descended from a man who fought in the Civil War. You keep your "Patriot Threats" to yourself, or you'll get no more response from me. Some of us knew, early on, what we were expected to live up to.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74896Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:36:35 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74896jtbSteve, our boys today are dying for their country over in Iraq. We are, in spite of Carrie's opinion, in a world war. I'm not questioning your patriotism, just the effect of your opposition. Hell, I hated everything there was about the VietNam war, but I never once took to the streets, or signed onto Hanoi Jane's brand of opposition. I COULDN'T, not with friends and family over there. And I firmly believe that more soldiers died over there than should have, because of the divisive rhetoric than emanated from our shores, that emboldened a beaten enemy into holding out just a few years longer.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74926Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:44:38 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74926OliviaRay Eversole, Baton Rouge--Visit The Dead Pelican website for a link to the interesting article I read about your fair city today.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#74967Wed, 28 Feb 2007 21:57:30 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:74967Not a LibSteve I read what you posted about " there are no Great Politicians in this time." I'm curious did you mean currently? Because there are some very important names that should be on that list: Ronald Reagan, Abraham Lincoln, FDR, 'IKE', and JFK. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#75073Wed, 28 Feb 2007 22:33:21 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:75073Steve Turner Cedar Falls IowaNot a. I mean right at this very minute. We're talking Politicians, OK, not War Heroes. I can't speak about Lincoln or Roosevelt since I wasn't born for them, but I remember that Ike played golf, Kennedy sailed boats, and Reagan rode his horse. They were all for show. Certainly no John Adams or Thomas Jefferson. Party guys, just Party guys.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#75148Wed, 28 Feb 2007 23:09:48 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:75148DesmondSteve Turner, and our Founding Fathers could read Latin and Greek.Nowadays it's English Only. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#75497Thu, 01 Mar 2007 03:18:02 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:75497Steve Turner Cedar Falls IowaDesmond. Dos Moi Pousto. Kai Keno Teen Geen. Give me a place to stand, and I will move the earth. - Archimedeshttp://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#75682Thu, 01 Mar 2007 10:05:33 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:75682Rick, An Airbase in GermanyI just finished talking (drinking a beer) with seven Marines on their way to Iraq. All in great sprites, ready to do their job, hoping to see the job through to the end. Great young men. One served with my youngest brother, a recently retired Gunnery Sgt.from the Marine Corp. Bought them all a couple of rounds of beer, and asked them to stop on by when they returned. I wish (liberal) America would just shut up and get behind these young men and women. You may say you support them, but they know, they know that when you are busy bad mouthing the war, the leadership, the plan, the efforts, and everything they are trying to do. They know, and they are sick and tired of it, and “your efforts”. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#75746Thu, 01 Mar 2007 13:16:24 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:75746ex-marine, vietvetevery marine knows incompetetant leadership and bs when they hear it.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#75776Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:00:09 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:75776Mike PAVWell said Rick. Don't be surprised if you get a whole lot of flack from those who pretend to care about our troops. They hate Bush, hate conservatives, hate the war, but they are quick to point out that they support our troops. Some of them spew hate retoric and when you call them on hurting our troops they say, my whole family was in the war and "I'm an American so I have a right to act like an irresponsible, iggnorant, missinformed idiot." http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#75812Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:40:34 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:75812M.E., Albany,Ga.Rick- O n c e A g a i n.......Not supporting Bush's decisions does not equal non-support of our troops. It's ludicrous for the support of our troops to ever be questioned. "Bought them all a couple of rounds of beer, and asked them to stop on by when they returned.". Well aren't you special. "They know, and they are sick and tired of it, and "your efforts". You are right. They "are" "sick and tired of it". But, it's because they are ready to come home. Also, correction. Not all people serving are "young". But I believe the young "and" older know what's happening here at home, and are rooting us on to prevail in our "efforts" to get them out of this quagmire they have been put in. I don't see any articles or subsequent blogging here or anywhere else that indicates a desertion of our troops is in order. This spin was only born out of a need by Bush's administration to discredit the poll results of last November. They saw this opposition coming as soon as the votes were tallied, and this was the only thing they could come up with. I can still hear their buzzing..."Prey on their conscience; claim that our military is their target, and they'll back off, or..we will try and make them look like a group of non-patriots out to slam our military". In a way, they have succeeded in attacking "my" conscience, as I feel guilty as hell that we sent them to Iraq to fight a war based on lies. This spoof may have worked on those who don't think for themselves, but anyone with half-sense can see there is no merit in this spin. That argument had absolutely nothing to do with the "support of our military", and....Yes! Our military "knows" that. How in the hell can anyone argue that we wouldn't want be behind our own flesh and blood is beyond me. The two sides of that argument is as different as apples and oranges. One more thing "the plan".....nevermind...I think I know your "plan". "Take one down and pass it around..another bottle of beer..." http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#76020Thu, 01 Mar 2007 17:11:28 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:76020Rick, GermanyM.E. It’s people like you who really believe Kerry and Murtha have been “swiftboated” What you fail to understand is this. If you have served with a military man or women in a war zone, AND served with honor and loyalty, then there is an unbreakable bond. One that can be called upon at any time or any place. If you haven’t served with the honor that your nation and your comrades deserve then you will not understand what I am saying. However for those who served to serve themselves, at the expense of their brothers and sisters in arms then there is no length great enough to see to it that they are exposed for the rat b@sta#ds that they are. When you say you support these troops and with your next breath fail to support the effort they KNOW which category you are in. I served, my brother served, my father law served, my daughter and her husband are serving and my son will serve next year. No one will ever “swift boat” me or my family. Yes, our young troops are really sick and tired of the war efforts at home and are bright enough to see it for the political game it is. That is the sickest thing about the entire “we care” crap that is spouted on this site daily. You just don’t get it, that they see the game for what it is. And still they serve with honor and dignity. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#76023Thu, 01 Mar 2007 17:12:55 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:76023Mel, Illinois1861...U.S. Army hospitals are overwhelmed by the number of wounded soldiers. They are unprepared because, afterall, this war was supposed to be a cakewalk, over in a matter of weeks. 2007...U.S. Army hospitals are overwhelmed...http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#76025Thu, 01 Mar 2007 17:13:36 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:76025jtbM.E., Albany, Ga.: uh, yes it DOES, whether you are either too naive, or too angry, or too dumb to realize it.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#76212Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:22:58 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:76212M.E., Albany, Ga.Rick said it all- "Yes our troops are sick and tired of the war efforts at home and are bright enough to see it for the political game it is." You indeed validate my point that it is a "political game". But...to jtb/Rick you have no right to question "my" loyalty to the "troops". Maybe you should look at them as living, breathing human beings, and not just collectively as "troops". Most of them having never had the chance to even start a life before their life is over. I also don't have to state my credentials to validate my argument in this matter. You'll hear no war stories from me. Go have another beer.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#76319Thu, 01 Mar 2007 20:58:20 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:76319Mindi, SacramentoMike PAV and Rick - So you tell me, if a (any) president were to say, take our military and invade Great Britain or some other similar country just because he wanted to conquer it, you seriously would sit back and say nothing? If you truly believed that civilian leadership was misusing our military, you would keep your mouth's closed, no matter how many military men and women died? I think we can agree that it's our civilian leadership that comes up with the goal of a mission and it's policies right (or am I wrong there)? Why can I not distinguish between what I believe are bad policies and having respect for military men and women who must go where the president sends them? If I don't agree with a policy, even though that policy affects my life (which this does, as my loved one is in Baghdad now), I just have to sit there and shutup? That's not the American way. And Rick, I know some military members that don't think we should be in Iraq and don't think we can change the course of what is happening now(it doesn't mean they aren't giving 100%). Everyone has their own perspective. It's a mixed bag. Rick, when you say "the effort" what do you mean? I support the effort of eradicating the use of terrorism as a tactic. I don't believe our current policies are helping to eradicate terrorism, at least not in Iraq, that's what I don't support. If there was a real change in policy that did show some improvement I would be behind it. I cannot be behind a policy that has failed to make long term improvements in violence with my loved one's life at stake.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#76322Thu, 01 Mar 2007 21:01:40 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:76322jtbM.E.: here, I'll spell it out in simple terms: If YOU were Osama or Zawahiri, what would be your response to all the political withering criticism of the Bush administration and its Iraq policy? : 1: shake in your turban, afraid that, with all the support at home, Bush may decide to nuke their sorry derrieres off the planet., or 2: jump for joy at all the opposition, think about what happened in 'Nam, and hold on until Bush is either impeached, or the last American soldier is removed. this is not a trick question, and, yes, M.E., it is this black and white.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#76408Thu, 01 Mar 2007 22:27:25 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:76408Susan, NebraskaReinstate the draft. Then all of the rich war mongers with children 18 and up will rethink their stance on this war Bush created. And as usual when there is nothing else to attack, we have to go for the "you can't support our troop but not the war" conversation. Maybe it is simply that we don't want them to die for a senseless cause that, just because you spoke with 7 men who were gung ho about their "job", doesn't mean I can't find 14 that say there is no VICTORY here. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#76520Fri, 02 Mar 2007 00:07:54 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:76520Mel, IllinoisOver 10% of the adult U.S. population served in WWII. Less than half of 1% is currently serving. And with approximately half of those currently serving thinking the war was a mistake, that's probably not enough voices to get Gerorge Bush's attention.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#76522Fri, 02 Mar 2007 00:08:55 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:76522Mel, IllinoisWhoops...mispelled George...it's been a long day.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#76740Fri, 02 Mar 2007 04:47:16 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:76740Mindi, Sacramentojtb - So what, according to you, is the proper way to dissent? Does everyone always have to agree with whatever the president says (or for that matter what you say)? Did you agree with Clinton's decision to go into Bosnia or Somalia? If our military was already there and you didn't agree, does that make you treasonous or dumb? Please remember that Iraq did not attack us on 9/11, Bin Laden and his Saudi cronies did, and I see we are no closer to catching and punishing him. Bush's Iraq policy has not created a safer Iraq. In point of fact, violence is worse now than three years ago. No one is saying that Saddam didn't deserve what he got, but it used to be, in Iraq, that Shia and Sunni could intermarry and for the most part didn't much care which sect another person believed in (check the facts). Not now. Another point in fact, in Afghanistan, the country that did harbor people that attacked us, the Taliban and Al Qaeda is resurging, there is rampant corruption in the government, the drug (opium) trade is very high. I don't see how we finished the mission there. It's time for the people who consistently say that by stating one's belief that the war isn't going well, that we are helping the enemy, to explain why we should trust the Bush administration after four years of straight-up deceit ("we are winning", "the terrorists are in the last throes", "no civil war"), and no progress in reducing violence or in producing Iraqi battalions that can truly stand on their own. You're for it, why should we trust? Straight answer please.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#76927Fri, 02 Mar 2007 14:27:26 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:76927Rick, GermanyTake your "we support you" message to a flightline where hundreds of military members are waiting to board their deployment plane, standing there with their loved ones. Take it there and see how quickly you are shown where you can shove your "message". You are not needed nor wanted by the military community. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#77009Fri, 02 Mar 2007 15:58:28 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:77009jtbHey, Mindi, when you are in a War, there should be No dissent. The time for discussion Should be BEFORE we send our troops. Once they are sent, we remain united behind them until 1) we are victorious, or 2) we are annihilated and defeated. And we should uses EVERY weapon in our arsenal to defeat the enemy. Once the shooting starts, there are only two outcomes: victory or defeat. Why is that so hard for you libs to comprehend?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#77014Fri, 02 Mar 2007 16:04:54 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:77014Been in a draft, didn't like it, wasn't called, but would have gone if selectedSusan: if they reinstate the draft, they will draft EVERYONE, and I'm afraid we will have to insist that women be drafted for combat roles, too. Still think the draft is a good idea?http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#77106Fri, 02 Mar 2007 17:01:12 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:77106M.E., Albany, Ga.Rick- "You are not needed nor wanted by the military community". Strange you chose to tell me that this morning. Baaad timing "man". The devil came down to Georgia last night in the form of 5 tornadoes in 3hrs. , and I received a call at 0930 to fly with some patients being evac'd. Think I wasn't "really" needed or wanted? Ask those 6 people I helped load in the pouring rain and gave med care to on that pick-up. Could have fooled me. I'm glad you clarified my status. I'm tired, hungry and sleepy, so you can rant all you want for the rest of the day. "Elvis has left the building" for a few days. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#77244Fri, 02 Mar 2007 18:51:23 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:77244Mindijtb - There should be no dissent after a war is started? Are you kidding? Just like the question I asked Rick and Mike, which neither bothered to answer, If you truly believed the military was being misused by the civilian government, say for example for personal gain, you would seriously say nothing if fighting was going on already, no matter how many died? Why is it so hard for you to understand that many people believe our military is being misused by making them police a civil war? The thing I can't comprehend is throwing more and more people at a problem, using the same policy that is obviously not making any progress. There is no reason I should continue to be behind a policy that has a good chance of getting my loved one killed, for no progress. You show me some long-term progress being made in reducing the violence in Baghdad and the surrounding areas, where the largest percentage of the Iraqi people are, and I may change my mind, but it would be foolish to remain behind the same old policies that have obviously made no difference in the past, which are not accomplishing the mission, through no fault of the military, but through fault of civilian leadership making the policies and not being willing to truly change strategies or policies when past policies have shown they aren't working.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#77297Fri, 02 Mar 2007 19:37:45 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:77297Neill C., Montgomery, AlIf this debate was so important, why did they put it off? http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#77304Fri, 02 Mar 2007 19:39:42 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:77304Mel, IllinoisDraft, my kids have a friend (Army. M.P.) who will be surprised to learn that when her squad came under attack and she fired back she wasn't in combat. She somehow managed to deal with the IEDs, too. Gosh, she even gave up nail polish.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#77325Fri, 02 Mar 2007 19:57:25 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:77325just lovelySO,if you support the war, Bush, the surge, all of the death and maiming...you support the troops. If you are against the war, the surge, all of the death and maiming...you don't support the troops. If you want the troops to be safe and not be killed you are against them?? Perfectly clear...I didn't realize that wanting these men and women to die in a war based on false information was how we are to support them. Gosh...I better take notes, that doesn't make one damn bit of sense to me.http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/02/28/73789.aspx#77420Fri, 02 Mar 2007 21:00:41 GMT8a5d2dbc-a0e4-4c7a-979f-3188051f228e:77420Susan, NebraskaUnfortunately you completely misunderstood the point of my statement. My point is that the way the military is set up is to entice people who need the money. My younger sister just signed up for the reserve and was shipped to basic on Tuesday. The reason she signed up. . . because she wanted the money to be able to afford to go to school. She believes, and I don't mean to sound like this was a direct statement, but she was led to believe she wouldn't be shipped out. How can you do that to anyone. "Go ahead and sign up, there is all this money in it for you, and the liklihood of having to 'go' is minimal". She is a 19 year old kid, that kind of money is HUGE. MY POINT, which unfortunately was COMPLETELY escaped you, is that if the draft were reinstated, the rich bureaucrats who right now are sitting on their hands because there is no cost to themselves would maybe stand up for something and not be endorsing a war with no merit. To answer your question, YES if it went that far as to actually reinstate it, I would expect that women would be drafted as well. So don't even try to put me up on a soap box that doesn't exist. NOW, Rick in Germany and all others who insinuate that there is no division between supporting the troops and supporting the cause. Ask me again. There is a very VERY real chance that when my sisters basic training is over she will be shipped over seas because in July when she is out, most likely Bush will have forced us into Iran as well. THERE IS NO WINNING HERE. So let's get off our hands and end this senseless dying and killing. Everytime I have asked someone to define winning in Iraq to me. . . no on will do it. Winning to me. . is my sister not having to go. And if she does have to go. . . winning is ALL our troops coming home with the least amount of blood shed possible. WAR SHOULD BE THE LAST RESORT, not the first!!!!!!!